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winterwawa
Joined: 06 May 2007
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 Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| crossmr wrote: |
| winterwawa wrote: |
| crossmr wrote: |
| dongjak wrote: |
| As of June 2008: 118,421 immigrants were living in Korea through marriage to a Korean national. An additional 17,809 people are considered legal permanent residents. |
F2 is much broader than a spouse visa. F2s are used in many situations included foreign diplomatic/embassy staff, refugees, points visas now, and other things. |
Where did you get your info? An F2 is a spousal VISA. The -1 means you have permission to work. |
No it is not. It is a residence visa.
The various -# has a meaning as to specifically which kind of residence visa it is. -1 used to mean you had permission to work a long time ago. Since then it's been revamped.
F2s are issued to refugees
foreign government workers now get F2s
Those who make big investments can also get an F2
and of course the points visa that has been discussed of late here is an F2 as well, an F-2-7.
If you look at the spreadsheet given above, you'll actually see all the various F2s that existed in 2008 of various classes, of course it doesn't have the new F-2-7 on it. They are listed as F2 F21 F22 (etc without the -)
Spouse is by far the most common use of the visa, but it is by no means the only use of it. In 2008 about 5% of the F2s issued the visa were not to spouses of Koreans.
The biggest non spousal category was general resident.
These were probably investors and the like. |
You are both right and wrong. You are correct in that the F2 is a residence visa, but the point system VERY NEW. But you are wrong about the Big investment VISA. Big investors are given an F5, not an F2. Try reading the immigration web site. As for the -1, it is still for permission to work. I know. I have one.
Let me quote the immigration website for you
Residency(F-2)
Application Eligibility
o The spouse of Korea national
o The spouse of the one with permanent residence status (F-5 visa)
http://www.hikorea.go.kr/pt/InfoDetailR_en.pt?categoryId=2&parentId=382&catSeq=385&showMenuId=374&visaId=F2
Permanent Residence (F-5)
Application Eligibility
o Among necessary conditions of attached list 1, No. 28-3, eligibility for permanent residence, enforcement ordinance, Immigration Control Law, a foreign high investor and a foreigner of superior ability in specified fields.
❍ A foreign high investor
- The one who has invested USD 500,000 or more in accordance with 『Foreign Investor Promotion Law』and is hiring 5 Koreans or more.
※ Foreign Investor means who has stocks/shares or donates according to 「Foreign Investor Promotion Law」. However, a corporate body is not applicable.
❍ A foreigner of superior ability in specified fields
1. Field of Science
- One recommended by Minister of education�science�technology with prize record, being reported and standard of citation on SCI(Science Citation Index) and results of research.
2. Field of Business Administration
- One who has worked as a Multinational Managers or Executives at a corporation of world best 500 corporations those are announced by FORTUNE in last 3 years and who is willing to work at a domestic branch, etc.
※ Please refer below to check world best 500 corporations announced by FORTUNE.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2008/
3. Field of Education
- One recommended by Minister of education�science�technology with being reported and standard of citation on SSCI(Social Science Citation Index) and A&HCI(Art and Humanities Citation Index) and results of research.
4. Field of Culture/Art
- One recommended by Minister of Culture, Sports and Tourism as a internationally celebrated artist, director or vocalist, etc.
5. Field of Physical culture
- One recommended by Minister of Culture, Sports and Tourism among Winners and the coaches who win bronze medal or higher at the Olympics, the International Championship Series, the Asian game or equivalent competition.
- One recommended by Minister of Culture, Sports and Tourism among who record 16th place or higher at the World Cup and the coaches.
End quote.
You are also wrong about the F2 being used for diplomatic VISAs. A diplomatic VISA is an A1. I know a couple who work for the Vietnamese embassy. They have diplomatic VISAs. They are not allowed on the national health care system because they do not pay taxes. If they were on an F2 they could get the insurance.
End quote
Again, let me quote the immigration website.
VISA Types
Single Entry Visa
* Only a single-entry is permitted for the duration of the visa.
* Valid for 3 months from the date it had been issued.
multiple-entry visa
* Multiple entries are permitted for as long as visa remains valid.
* Valid for:
- Diplomacy (A-1) / Conventions/Agreements (A-3) visa status: 3 years from date of issue.
- Visa provided under multiple-entry visa Agreement: duration specified by an agreement.
- Visa provided for national benefit: duration specified by the Minister of Justice
http://www.hikorea.go.kr/pt/InfoDetailR_en.pt?categoryId=2&parentId=382&catSeq=&showMenuId=374
End quote.
Korean newspapers might not be your best source. |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:30 am Post subject: |
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The Korean immigration website is horribly out of date on many visas. For example the H1 working holiday visa doesn't even list half of the valid countries. The spreadsheet provided is from Immigration and lists the various class of visas. You'll notice tons of visas listed which do not appear individually on the website at all. They seem to be listing only the absolute most common information. It is not a comprehensive or up to date guide.
The news stories come from various government announcements.
| Quote: |
| Expatriates who invest more than $500,000 in local real estate will be granted F-2 status and acquire permanent residence or F-5 status after residing in Korea for five years. |
F5s used to be used for big investors, the scheme has changed.
You'll note one of the F2 visa classes listed on the visa issuance break down The F-2-4 is "고액투자" this essentially means "large investment"
While there are only 2 issued, this was probably created just as this usage was beginning and there are likely more now.
F-2-2 is the refugee visa as 난민 essentially translates to that. There were 97 of those visas in 2008 issued.
So regardless of what the immigration website says, the visa is issued for the reasons stated.
| Quote: |
| According to the ministry foreign employees at government agencies will be allowed to stay in the country for three years with F-2 visas, after the National Assembly has recently passed a law on visa rules. It has yet to set an implementation date. |
If you'll note the story says the law is passed but the implementation date hadn't been set. It's on the books, but it may not have been started yet. It also notes this is for embassy staff previously on an E7. If your friends are on an A-1, they may be in a different visa class/job than what this was targeting.
You'll also note that the immigration website still talks about fees for multiple entry visas, but as has been pointed out on another site, re-entry stamps are no longer required for foreigners with ARCs.
| Quote: |
| As for the -1, it is still for permission to work. I know. I have one |
Your point? It doesn't "permission to work" on the visa. -1 means spouse of a korean. A long time ago, people used to have to go to get their visas adjusted to add the -1 to mean permission to work, but I haven't seen any of those posts or anyone talking about that in years.
you can see right on the spreadsheet that the F-2-1 visa is listed as "국배우자" 배우자 is spouse.
[edit]
also if you like you see the original korea.net story here:
http://www.korea.net/detail.do?guid=43797
on the F-2 for real estate investment. It includes a link at the top to the actual MOJ press release which details all the new immigration policies announced in February 2010.
if you want the stats straight from the horse's mouth you can get it from here:
http://www.immigration.go.kr/HP/IMM/newsimg/statistics/statistics2008.pdf
starts on page 301 regarding F2 series visas. |
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winterwawa
Joined: 06 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| crossmr wrote: |
The Korean immigration website is horribly out of date on many visas. For example the H1 working holiday visa doesn't even list half of the valid countries. The spreadsheet provided is from Immigration and lists the various class of visas. You'll notice tons of visas listed which do not appear individually on the website at all. They seem to be listing only the absolute most common information. It is not a comprehensive or up to date guide.
The news stories come from various government announcements.
| Quote: |
| Expatriates who invest more than $500,000 in local real estate will be granted F-2 status and acquire permanent residence or F-5 status after residing in Korea for five years. |
F5s used to be used for big investors, the scheme has changed.
You'll note one of the F2 visa classes listed on the visa issuance break down The F-2-4 is "고액투자" this essentially means "large investment"
While there are only 2 issued, this was probably created just as this usage was beginning and there are likely more now.
F-2-2 is the refugee visa as 난민 essentially translates to that. There were 97 of those visas in 2008 issued.
So regardless of what the immigration website says, the visa is issued for the reasons stated.
| Quote: |
| According to the ministry foreign employees at government agencies will be allowed to stay in the country for three years with F-2 visas, after the National Assembly has recently passed a law on visa rules. It has yet to set an implementation date. |
If you'll note the story says the law is passed but the implementation date hadn't been set. It's on the books, but it may not have been started yet. It also notes this is for embassy staff previously on an E7. If your friends are on an A-1, they may be in a different visa class/job than what this was targeting.
You'll also note that the immigration website still talks about fees for multiple entry visas, but as has been pointed out on another site, re-entry stamps are no longer required for foreigners with ARCs.
| Quote: |
| As for the -1, it is still for permission to work. I know. I have one |
Your point? It doesn't "permission to work" on the visa. -1 means spouse of a korean. A long time ago, people used to have to go to get their visas adjusted to add the -1 to mean permission to work, but I haven't seen any of those posts or anyone talking about that in years.
you can see right on the spreadsheet that the F-2-1 visa is listed as "국배우자" 배우자 is spouse.
[edit]
also if you like you see the original korea.net story here:
http://www.korea.net/detail.do?guid=43797
on the F-2 for real estate investment. It includes a link at the top to the actual MOJ press release which details all the new immigration policies announced in February 2010.
if you want the stats straight from the horse's mouth you can get it from here:
http://www.immigration.go.kr/HP/IMM/newsimg/statistics/statistics2008.pdf
starts on page 301 regarding F2 series visas. |
Okay. So you are the resident expert on all things concerning VISAs in Korea? SO NOT.
I read through the report you linked to and there was not one mention of an F2-7. There was an F2-1, -2 -3, -4 and -5, but no -7.
Furthermore, the F2 for real estate investment is only for those who wish to invest in real estate on Jeju Do, and is not a Korean wide regulation, yet. The High investor F5 IS still in force and is one of many F5 VISAs that immigration issues.
Quote from the link you provided.
"Overseas business investors who invest at least US$500,000 in resort places and real estate on Jeju-do Island will be granted F-2 visas. The status can be changed to an F-5 visa (permanent residency) after staying in the country for five years or more on the F-2 visa. This policy may later be extended to other regions outside Jeju-do. For more information, download the news release from Korea Immigration Service "
End quote.
If you are going to use a link to back up your argument, at least take the time to read the information on the link.
And I really doubt that you are the person to turn to to find out whether the immigration website is "out of date." The new F5 for foreign investors was only introduced last year, which is when the website was updated to include the information I quoted in my previous post.
Please stop using press releases and non governmental websites to impress us with what YOU think is true about VISAs that you have no experience acquiring.
Last edited by winterwawa on Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Okay. So you are the resident expert on all things concerning VISAs in Korea? I read through the report you linked to and there was not one mention of an F2-7. There was an F2-1, -2 -3, -4 and -5, but no 7.
Sorry, but I don't take too much stock in press releases. And even less in your "Expert" knowledge of this subject. |
The spreadsheet is from 2008 and doesn't contain the points visa. They haven't release any other stats since 2008 unfortunately. not sure why they only did it for the one year.
The points system was actually first announced in April, not February so it wouldn't be included in the press release for that month.
Here is the announcement for this on immigration's website:
http://www.immigration.go.kr/HP/COM/bbs_03/ListShowData.do?strOrgGbnCd=104080&strFilePath=imm80/&strRtnURL=IMM80_3010&strNbodCd=noti0090&strNbodCd=noti0090&strWrtNo=2475&strAnsNo=A&strThisPage=2
I don't take much stock in someone who clings to websites which are obviously out of date and incomplete when there is significant evidence to the contrary. Looking at the spreadsheet from 2008 alone tells you there are dozens of visa classes not discussed on the immigration website.
You'll also find that if you go to the Korean version of the page, you'll get much more complete and up-to-date information.
For example,
F2
http://www.hikorea.go.kr/pt/InfoDetailR_kr.pt?categoryId=1&parentId=140&catSeq=183&showMenuId=18&visaId=F2
| Quote: |
1 민 또는 영주(F-5)자격을 가지고 있는 자의 배우자
2 난민인정을 받은 외국인
3 외국인투자촉진법의 규정에 의한 외국인투자기업에 종사하고자 하는 자로서 투자금액이 미화 50만불 이상인 외국법인이 외국인투자촉진법의 규정에 의한 외국인투자기업에 파견하는 자 중 기업투자(D- 자격으로 3년 이상 계속 체류하고 있는 외국인
4 영주(F-5)자격을 상실한 자 중 국내 생활관계의 권익보호 등을 고려하여 법무부장관이 국내에서 계속 체류하여야 할 필요가 있다고 인정하는 외국인
5 외교(A-1), 공무(A-2), 협정(A-3) 자격외의 체류자격으로 대한민국에 7년 이상 계속 체류하여 생활근거지가 국내에 있는 자로서 법무부장관이 인정하는 외국인 |
Do you see that? Let's got through them.
1- spouse of a korean or F5
2 - refugee
3 - Big investor
4 - I'm not fully clear on this one
5 - diplomatic staff
but hey if you want to cling to some out-of-date english version of the page and claim it's the be all and end all feel free.
So as I said, The F-2 is not just a spousal visa and covers all the categories I indicated before. Anything else?
| Quote: |
Please stop using press releases and non governmental websites to impress us with what YOU think is true about VISAs that you have no experience acquiring.
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Who says I have no experience acquiring them?
The investor's F2 is currently available only on Jeju, but it's still available.
It's also listed on the immigration website as I've indicated above. Just not in English.
Same with all the other uses of the F2 visa. The spreadsheet also tells us that the F-2 was used for big investors before the current change anyway.
| Quote: |
Please stop using press releases and non governmental websites to impress us with what YOU think is true about VISAs that you have no experience acquiring.
|
For the record other than a couple news stories, every link I provided was a government site. The news stories only duplicated what was on the government sites.
But now that I've provided the direct immigration link, I won't be holding my breath for you to admit you were wrong.
Last edited by crossmr on Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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winterwawa
Joined: 06 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| crossmr wrote: |
| Quote: |
Okay. So you are the resident expert on all things concerning VISAs in Korea? I read through the report you linked to and there was not one mention of an F2-7. There was an F2-1, -2 -3, -4 and -5, but no 7.
Sorry, but I don't take too much stock in press releases. And even less in your "Expert" knowledge of this subject. |
The spreadsheet is from 2008 and doesn't contain the points visa. They haven't release any other stats since 2008 unfortunately. not sure why they only did it for the one year.
The points system was actually first announced in April, not February so it wouldn't be included in the press release for that month.
Here is the announcement for this on immigration's website:
http://www.immigration.go.kr/HP/COM/bbs_03/ListShowData.do?strOrgGbnCd=104080&strFilePath=imm80/&strRtnURL=IMM80_3010&strNbodCd=noti0090&strNbodCd=noti0090&strWrtNo=2475&strAnsNo=A&strThisPage=2
I don't take much stock in someone who clings to websites which are obviously out of date and incomplete when there is significant evidence to the contrary. Looking at the spreadsheet from 2008 alone tells you there are dozens of visa classes not discussed on the immigration website.
You'll also find that if you go to the Korean version of the page, you'll get much more complete and up-to-date information.
For example,
F2
http://www.hikorea.go.kr/pt/InfoDetailR_kr.pt?categoryId=1&parentId=140&catSeq=183&showMenuId=18&visaId=F2
| Quote: |
1 민 또는 영주(F-5)자격을 가지고 있는 자의 배우자
2 난민인정을 받은 외국인
3 외국인투자촉진법의 규정에 의한 외국인투자기업에 종사하고자 하는 자로서 투자금액이 미화 50만불 이상인 외국법인이 외국인투자촉진법의 규정에 의한 외국인투자기업에 파견하는 자 중 기업투자(D-자격으로 3년 이상 계속 체류하고 있는 외국인
4 영주(F-5)자격을 상실한 자 중 국내 생활관계의 권익보호 등을 고려하여 법무부장관이 국내에서 계속 체류하여야 할 필요가 있다고 인정하는 외국인
5 외교(A-1), 공무(A-2), 협정(A-3) 자격외의 체류자격으로 대한민국에 7년 이상 계속 체류하여 생활근거지가 국내에 있는 자로서 법무부장관이 인정하는 외국인 |
Do you see that? Let's got through them.
1- spouse of a korean or F5
2 - refugee
3 - Big investor
4 - I'm not fully clear on this one
5 - diplomatic staff
but hey if you want to cling to some out-of-date english version of the page and claim it's the be all and end all feel free.
So as I said, The F-2 is not just a spousal visa and covers all the categories I indicated before. Anything else?
| Quote: |
Please stop using press releases and non governmental websites to impress us with what YOU think is true about VISAs that you have no experience acquiring.
|
Who says I have no experience acquiring them?
The investor's F2 is currently available only on Jeju, but it's still available.
It's also listed on the immigration website as I've indicated above. Just not in English.
Same with all the other uses of the F2 visa. The spreadsheet also tells us that the F-2 was used for big investors before the current change anyway. |
I am not fluent in Korean, but the English version is not as out of date as you would have people believe.
Refugee (F-2-2)
Spouse of Permanent Residency (F-5) status holder (F-2-3)
High investor (F-2-4)
-As a director/employee at a foreign invested corporation invested more than USD 500,000, who has been 3 years or more with Corporate Investment (D- visa
Long-term Sojourner (F-2-5)
- Foreigner that has domestic residence over 7 years of continuous stay in ROK with the status other than Diplomacy
The link is here.
http://www.hikorea.go.kr/pt/InfoDetailR_en.pt?categoryId=2&parentId=392&catSeq=433&showMenuId=376&visaId=F1
Then click on F2 in the list of VISAs. Not really that different than what you have posted above. You may be correct about the points as a -7. I know that this is a new system, but I have read on other threads that it may not be fully adopted.
Anyway, I am bored with this discussion. So keep posting your links to Korean new releases and Korean language websites. Just keep in mind that most press releases amount to little more than positive propaganda, and that most people on these boards (with a few exceptions) are even less fluent in Korean than I am, making any link to a Korean language website kind of a moot point.
Cheers |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| winterwawa wrote: |
I am not fluent in Korean, but the English version is not as out of date as you would have people believe.
Refugee (F-2-2)
Spouse of Permanent Residency (F-5) status holder (F-2-3)
High investor (F-2-4)
-As a director/employee at a foreign invested corporation invested more than USD 500,000, who has been 3 years or more with Corporate Investment (D- visa
Long-term Sojourner (F-2-5)
- Foreigner that has domestic residence over 7 years of continuous stay in ROK with the status other than Diplomacy
The link is here.
http://www.hikorea.go.kr/pt/InfoDetailR_en.pt?categoryId=2&parentId=392&catSeq=433&showMenuId=376&visaId=F1
Then click on F2 in the list of VISAs. Not really that different than what you have posted above. You may be correct about the points as a -7. I know that this is a new system, but I have read on other threads that it may not be fully adopted.
Anyway, I am bored with this discussion. So keep posting your links to Korean new releases and Korean language websites. Just keep in mind that most press releases amount to little more than positive propaganda, and that most people on these boards (with a few exceptions) are even less fluent in Korean than I am, making any link to a Korean language website kind of a moot point.
Cheers |
Apparently they've finally updated the English version of the F-2. So what are you carrying on about?
Ah I see.
you linked to an old version of the F-2 page somehow, first time around
http://www.hikorea.go.kr/pt/InfoDetailR_en.pt?categoryId=2&parentId=382&catSeq=385&showMenuId=374&visaId=F2
They've updated it with the new version
http://www.hikorea.go.kr/pt/InfoDetailR_en.pt?categoryId=2&parentId=392&catSeq=433&showMenuId=376&visaId=F2
which does contain all the other users of an F-2.
All of the press releases I linked to are correct as listed on the immigration website. All the uses exist and are right there. So I stand by my original statement that the F-2 is not a spousal visa and is used for several other categories including investors, refugees and diplomatic staff. It's also used for someone who lost their F5 but is allowed to stay.
It is nice to see that they finally updated the visa. I'll have to check a few others. When I went through some of them in the summer, they were still showing very out of date info. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| winterwawa wrote: |
Quote from the link you provided.
"Overseas business investors who invest at least US$500,000 in resort places and real estate on Jeju-do Island will be granted F-2 visas. The status can be changed to an F-5 visa (permanent residency) after staying in the country for five years or more on the F-2 visa. This policy may later be extended to other regions outside Jeju-do. For more information, download the news release from Korea Immigration Service "
End quote. |
You're sounding mighty ignorant. You do know that Jeju can set many of its own Immi rules, right?
Jeju is not a good example to go by. |
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winterwawa
Joined: 06 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| winterwawa wrote: |
Quote from the link you provided.
"Overseas business investors who invest at least US$500,000 in resort places and real estate on Jeju-do Island will be granted F-2 visas. The status can be changed to an F-5 visa (permanent residency) after staying in the country for five years or more on the F-2 visa. This policy may later be extended to other regions outside Jeju-do. For more information, download the news release from Korea Immigration Service "
End quote. |
You're sounding mighty ignorant. You do know that Jeju can set many of its own Immi rules, right?
Jeju is not a good example to go by. |
Hey CC. You clearly have not taken the time to read the debate between crossmr and I in detail, or you would certainly not make such a judgmental comment.
It was not I who used Jeju as an example. I was quoting an Immigration by law that was in the press release linked to by crossmr and that is also on the immigration website (in both Korean and English).
So it seems to me that YOU are the person sounding mighty ignorant, not I.
In the future you might try reading the details before making a comment. |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| winterwawa wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| winterwawa wrote: |
Quote from the link you provided.
"Overseas business investors who invest at least US$500,000 in resort places and real estate on Jeju-do Island will be granted F-2 visas. The status can be changed to an F-5 visa (permanent residency) after staying in the country for five years or more on the F-2 visa. This policy may later be extended to other regions outside Jeju-do. For more information, download the news release from Korea Immigration Service "
End quote. |
You're sounding mighty ignorant. You do know that Jeju can set many of its own Immi rules, right?
Jeju is not a good example to go by. |
Hey CC. You clearly have not taken the time to read the debate between crossmr and I in detail, or you would certainly not make such a judgmental comment.
It was not I who used Jeju as an example. I was quoting an Immigration by law that was in the press release linked to by crossmr and that is also on the immigration website (in both Korean and English).
So it seems to me that YOU are the person sounding mighty ignorant, not I.
In the future you might try reading the details before making a comment. |
Yes and you might try and make sure you're looking at and providing the most recent version of a page in a debate. If you'd provided as much and not an out of date version of the page and tried to hang your hat on it, we wouldn't have even have had the debate. |
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winterwawa
Joined: 06 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| crossmr wrote: |
| winterwawa wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| winterwawa wrote: |
Quote from the link you provided.
"Overseas business investors who invest at least US$500,000 in resort places and real estate on Jeju-do Island will be granted F-2 visas. The status can be changed to an F-5 visa (permanent residency) after staying in the country for five years or more on the F-2 visa. This policy may later be extended to other regions outside Jeju-do. For more information, download the news release from Korea Immigration Service "
End quote. |
You're sounding mighty ignorant. You do know that Jeju can set many of its own Immi rules, right?
Jeju is not a good example to go by. |
Hey CC. You clearly have not taken the time to read the debate between crossmr and I in detail, or you would certainly not make such a judgmental comment.
It was not I who used Jeju as an example. I was quoting an Immigration by law that was in the press release linked to by crossmr and that is also on the immigration website (in both Korean and English).
So it seems to me that YOU are the person sounding mighty ignorant, not I.
In the future you might try reading the details before making a comment. |
Yes and you might try and make sure you're looking at and providing the most recent version of a page in a debate. If you'd provided as much and not an out of date version of the page and tried to hang your hat on it, we wouldn't have even have had the debate. |
Not even the point, but thanks for the suggestion. |
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