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IMOE planned phase-out
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bobbybigfoot



Joined: 05 May 2007
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Koreans need to turn over English education to English native speakers. Let us teach a generation. Then, let that generation teach the next. Done.

I have met very few truly fluent Koreans in my 3.5 years in Korea. Most are very good, but have no business being primary teachers. Why?

(1) They model an accented dialect
(2) They have not mastered the use of articles (a, an, the)
(3) They have not mastered conjugation
(4) They have not mastered the tenses
(5) They use awkward phrasing

They end up sabotaging the children's progress. Simply put, the children learn an erroneous version of English. And it becomes really difficult to correct the errors. Bad habits are hard to break.

Finally, the bulk of the Korean teachers I have encountered have no formal training in education. And the majority have only had a scant few hours of training.
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earthquakez



Joined: 10 Nov 2010

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobby Bigfoot put it in a nutshell. Really, let Incheon go ahead and dump native English teachers. They deserve their kids saying nonsense like 'Every Jack has his Jill' and thinking it's everyday English. Laughing

However, I have to say that younger Korean English teachers are far better than the older ones from what I have experienced. In my last two schools I worked with female teachers on their first ever teaching gig and these young women had also travelled to countries like Canada, the US and NZ. Their English was impressive, including their accents.

It was embarrassing to hear the stilted accents of the older teachers in their 40s and 50s. I'll never forget one male who was 47 and he sounded like he was braying when he spoke in English. Just terrible. Embarassed
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthquakez wrote:
However, I have to say that younger Korean English teachers are far better than the older ones from what I have experienced.:


Absolutely-there are some great, fluent young things out there.

But they're still korean.

The students need cultural interraction with westerners.
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Vagabundo



Joined: 26 Aug 2010

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Junior wrote:
earthquakez wrote:
However, I have to say that younger Korean English teachers are far better than the older ones from what I have experienced.:


Absolutely-there are some great, fluent young things out there.

But they're still korean.

The students need cultural interraction with westerners.


I don't necessarily agree with you, especially the last sentence. The school of thought in ESL that holds that cultural interaction is very important in EFL acquisition I consider fairly moronic. My high school French teacher wasn't French, he was an excellent teacher though.

personally I think bobbybigfoot's points really hit the mark. I have yet to meet a single Korean English teacher in my several years here that could FULLY pass the "bobbybigfoot" test, even including my youngest and best coteacher who spent 5 months in Canada.

that said, I do wonder what native French speakers would've thought of my HS French teacher (though I am sure he spent more time in France than any of these Koreans have ever spent in an English speaking country).

to FULLY pass that test, is a fairly tall order for almost any non native speaker and super tall, in a non English speaking country with a language that bears so little resemblance, similarity or any common linguistic points of reference
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Radius



Joined: 20 Dec 2009

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bbud656 wrote:
I know my co teachers don't like reading to the students in English because they are afraid of making mistakes. I actually think my students learn more before and after class when I talk to them freely about whatever. That casual conversation can't be replicated by a non native teacher, easily. Luckily, I am funded directly by the students at my after school job, so I don't have to worry about losing my gig.


Well said. Truer words have never been spoken before. A lot of times I can have the best teaching-from-the-book lesson of my life with the kids, but that last 10 minutes shooting the breeze with the students with them actively engaged in the conversation and answering question and asking questions of myself IN ENGLISH is golden, and you are right again, it CANNOT be duplicated by the KET.
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Vagabundo



Joined: 26 Aug 2010

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a more interesting discussion would be for what reason are the kiddies learning English?

if the answer were to be (as it should be) for communication purposes, rather than passing some stupid test, or even fluency, then the majority of Korean English teachers would be adequate for the job. Clearly, for business/professional types, their English would need to be a bit better, but even for them, the best Korean English teacher might be adequate.

After all, when someone tells you, "take a rest", even though this is amusingly erroneous, are you having any understanding/communication issues?

of course not.
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Vagabundo



Joined: 26 Aug 2010

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Radius wrote:
bbud656 wrote:
I know my co teachers don't like reading to the students in English because they are afraid of making mistakes. I actually think my students learn more before and after class when I talk to them freely about whatever. That casual conversation can't be replicated by a non native teacher, easily. Luckily, I am funded directly by the students at my after school job, so I don't have to worry about losing my gig.


Well said. Truer words have never been spoken before. A lot of times I can have the best teaching-from-the-book lesson of my life with the kids, but that last 10 minutes shooting the breeze with the students with them actively engaged in the conversation and answering question and asking questions of myself IN ENGLISH is golden, and you are right again, it CANNOT be duplicated by the KET.


are you sure?
my best and youngest coteacher can definitely "shoot the breeze" when she's not stresed out and in the mood (which is rare, and usually always outside of school) and she can do it in "acceptable", if imperfect English, meaning there are never any understanding/miscommunication issues.

now if you are asking whether a Korean/foreign student can ever get the confidence or MOTIVATION to "shoot the breeze" with their teacher if he/she were Korean (on top of local culture making this almost impossible) is a different discussion.
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bcjinseoul



Joined: 13 Jan 2010
Location: Seoul, Korea

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

balzor wrote:
SMOE will phase out in 2012 or so I heard today.


I heard Gangnam public schools will do the same thing in 2012.
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Vagabundo



Joined: 26 Aug 2010

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bcjinseoul wrote:
balzor wrote:
SMOE will phase out in 2012 or so I heard today.


I heard Gangnam public schools will do the same thing in 2012.


what you probably heard was that they are planning to cut back starting in 2012, with the goal of a complete phaseout, say after 5 years or whatever.

they're clearly in no position to completely phase everything out within 2 years.
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creeper1



Joined: 30 Jan 2007

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:26 pm    Post subject: Another forum Reply with quote

Most Korean teachers are beginning to use English in the classroom and communicate in this means to their students. They just have to get the balance right.

Concerning foreign teachers I really think they take the easy way out 90 percent of the time with very poor teaching methodologies. They play hangman when the students' spelling is better than theirs. . They show videos in class. How much effort is required to press play? Do you need to pay someone handsomely to do this?
They also rely on bomb games way too much. Bomb game after bomb game after bomb game.
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vagabundo wrote:
The school of thought in ESL that holds that cultural interaction is very important in EFL acquisition I consider fairly moronic. My high school French teacher wasn't French, he was an excellent teacher though.


Right, but you still don't know what you might have missed out on by not having a native French teacher. Especially if you had planned to later live in France.
I mean I had a french friend at uni for 3 years, I consider it invaluable to understanding the mindset whenever I meet french people now. Knowing an english person who spoke french just wouldn't have been the same IMO.

Quote:
with the goal of a complete phaseout, say after 5 years


It doesn't make much sense- because no other country has "phased out" english teachers on the basis that they think they can teach themselves.

Because the point of it is to internationalise the kids: get them used to interracting with western culture. Sure Japan has cut some programmes, but that is down to economic conditions.
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b-class rambler



Joined: 25 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Junior wrote:


Right, but you still don't know what you might have missed out on by not having a native French teacher. Especially if you had planned to later live in France.


Well I DID have a native German teacher at school as well as two other British German teachers. I got the highest possible grades in German at both school and university and went on to become pretty fluent ( and unfortunately lost much of that fluency after sveral years in East Asia Sad ).

My native German teacher was absolutely useless as a teacher, however. He had no idea whatsoever how to function in a UK classroom and if he'd been my only teacher I'd have probably been put off either continuing German or ever going to live and work in Germany. I also had a native French teacher (Belgian actually) who did have precisely that effect on what was previously my stronger foreign language.

My 2 British German teachers were excellent. Their not being natives didn't stop me learning a lot about both the language, country and culture from them.


Junior wrote:


I mean I had a french friend at uni for 3 years, I consider it invaluable to understanding the mindset whenever I meet french people now. Knowing an english person who spoke french just wouldn't have been the same IMO.



Sorry, but having a French friend as an adult for several years at uni is nothing like have a (native) French teacher as a child in school.
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bbud656



Joined: 15 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do you do quotes on here?

I don't know if this is a cultural thing, but my Korean teachers (most speak English pretty well) rarely converse with students before or after class and almost never talk about anything outside of the text book. I speak to my students about their haircuts, what they did last weekend, what is on the menu for lunch, etc. I also let my advanced kids write about whatever they are passionate about (even Starcraft) as long as they can stay within the 5 paragraph essay format. Also, The idea of a debate was such a foreign concept to these kids (I can only speak for the ones I teach) before I got here.

I don't think my kids would be as engaged if they were just taught my Korean teachers, even excellent English abilities. Just memorizing words and rules isn't a good way to become fluent. Speaking and writing on subjects they are passionate about and thinking critically on the spot while defending topics they may not agree with seem to help my students a lot. Also, it helps to have a NET there to correct any mistakes and pronounciations problems.
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lowpo



Joined: 01 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Another forum Reply with quote

creeper1 wrote:
Most Korean teachers are beginning to use English in the classroom and communicate in this means to their students. They just have to get the balance right.

Concerning foreign teachers I really think they take the easy way out 90 percent of the time with very poor teaching methodologies. They play hangman when the students' spelling is better than theirs. . They show videos in class. How much effort is required to press play? Do you need to pay someone handsomely to do this?
They also rely on bomb games way too much. Bomb game after bomb game after bomb game.


Last edited by lowpo on Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:54 pm; edited 2 times in total
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b-class rambler



Joined: 25 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bbud656 wrote:
Just memorizing words and rules isn't a good way to become fluent.


I don't completely disagree, but it's still a very necessary part of learning a foreign language and one that has to be done from an early stage of the process.

If they don't have the basics, taught to them in a way that they can follow by someone who understands their L1 perspective, then a lot of other potentially useful things are never going to work.

Personally, I think a competent and properly used NET can be an huge asset to foreign language learning in many schools. But let's not pretend, as some unfortunately do, that just the mere presence of a someone who happens to be a native speaker will make a big difference, irrespective of how they're used.
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