Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Vagabundo]

[passport220]

[lithium]

[ippy]

did you two miss the other 9 pages where we had this discussion?

[ESL Milk "Everyday]

What I want to know is how they're selling this camp to the kids-- are they calling it 'English Camp 2010' or 'Feminism 101 Starring Ippy-teacher'? I'm sure if you called it what it is, you'd get heaps of parents just dying to sign their kids up for it. Your brochures could read 'We will challenge your kids, not discuss meaningless trivial topics like Dokdo.'

[ippy]

Nine pages of trolling the thread into the ground and you still want to keep it going. Well, im busy. Im busy planning a week of lessons. And more importantly, Im busy controlling the destiny and turning my nice imaginitive students into little sheeple at the whim of my command so they can rise up at my behest and destroy korean culture at last! AT LAST!!!



get a grip.

[ESL Milk "Everyday]

Aww come on... no one really comes to Dave's for advice on their lessons. It's a widely-known fact that this is where you go when your classes keep getting cancelled and you're bored and want to get into awesome arguments.

And anyway, you've since revealed that you know exactly what you're going to do anyway... so the only possible conclusion that anyone could come to is that this is exactly what you wanted. I have a hard time believing that even you couldn't have come up with 'you must deal with this delicately, exercising the utmost caution' all by yourself. In fact, isn't that how you actually began this whole thread????

And a week-long camp focussing only on the topic of feminism can't exactly be called strictly an ENGLISH camp, can it???

Here are some more potential names for you:

EngFemCom 2011
Female Empowerment... Through English!
"Stop Treating me Like An Object I Have English Feelings!"
Real Englysh For Real Womyn

You can make huge banners with little venus symbols on them and drape them around your classroom.

[ippy]

Is that a tacit admission finally? Thats a relief. Now i can happily exit stage left.

Truth is the whole discussion changed when the dude (im not going back to check who it was im afraid) said in one of the first posts, "i did something like this, but it was much more focussed on changing gender roles and expectations rather than 'feminism;". I say 'changed', but actually that was much closer to the intention of this from the outset than maybe the phrase i used (ie. 'feminsim').

I dont see feminism as a dirty word though and thats part of where this (somewhat deliberate) disconnect has existed in this thread. For me, feminism is about equality. Its not about demanding special treatment or an attack on men, its about dignity and equality. This is why i'll happily use the term feminism unloaded with the connotations of pro women/anti men. I genuinely find it ridiculous that anyone would oppose things like equal pay or equal opportunities. But people do. I find it slightly less ridiculous (but still ridiculous none the less) that anyone would suggest the playing field of gender was in fact level given that white middle aged men still dominate the fields of power (though i can accept that this is a much touchier subject and needs to be much more carefully handled EVEN OUTSIDE of the context of an ESL class lest it be seen as politiking).
I also recognise that gender in the workplace is massively complex and effects might not in fact be the result of obvious causes (merit, personal choice, and acculturation).

One of my mates always pointed out the name test for example. The details are now long trampled, but there was a black man who sent off a series of applications to various jobs, only in one case he used his real name and in the other he used a neutral sounding 'white' name. The results were spectacularly conclusive. Although the content of the CVs were the same, he got far more callbacks on his 'white' name than on his real name. It seems trivial, but thats kind of the point. Something so apparently trivial can in fact have an impact on ones chances and opportunities for just getting in the door whether deliberate or unconscious. This isnt to say that those people are racist, it was instead to suggest (the somewhat obvious point) that merit and due reward maybe dont tell the full story.

In truth my intention initially was to deal with this type of issue, but i was very quick to remember just how much depth my students could in fact handle and that maybe a subject like this might be a little beyond not only my kids English level, but also way beyond their cognitive level. It took that quick jolt to bring it back to much simpler topics and the warnings to keep it simple (established in the very first page) that really set the tone on how i planned to approach it. After all, the OP was very explicit on asking HOW to approach it and keep it effectively within the students level.

The other 9 pages though were taken up with arguing why i shouldnt deal with it at all. And in truth this wasnt really the direction i wanted to go in. I have a feeling as i say that the whole thing was really just about the definition of feminism in use here. For you and a few others you were thinking of this very much in the burn your bra, all men are rapists second wave, and maybe i was trollolol a bit by refusing to clarify how i was using the term, but it seemed an interesting discussion so i was happy to partake in it. I thought it was rather funny naturally when it invariably turned to how bad a teacher i am and how im bringing everyone down. I think these are cheap personal attacks in truth, and felt immediately that this was too over the top to be anything but a troll.

I did enjoy responding to them, but naturally i would rather the topic wasnt trolled because it is a complicated subject and it can be handled with a bit more variation than a simple yes/no binary. We are after all graduates and should be able to handle things with a bit of complexity and (self) critical awareness. Belive it or not, some people really DO come for lesson advice, or advice on how to handle potentially delicate issues and it seems a bit over the top to use their issues as a means to promote your message board identity. As kant said, 'always treat people as ends in themselves and never as mere means'. I think most of this discussion was about message board politics than the subject material and that is obviously not what i was really after

Plenty of people after all could resort to explaining why they thought it was a bad idea, but give qualifications on how it could be applied (people like troglodyte in particular expressed rather clearly that he thought feminism as a subject matter was a bit much, but if i realllllly had to do it, then he advised to keep it light, interesting, don't force my opinions on the students, and above all when the discussion runs out, move on to something else).

These are all great and timely reminders for anyone thinking about doing this type of project, so naturally i appreciated their input if not for my own sake (since by page 1 i already made significant modifications to how i wanted to go about it), but for other people thinking of dealing with a non standard and potentially explosive subject.

Overall its been a good discussion, but i still urge people to not get entrenched in a position. English is incredibly flexible and very little should be entirely off the table (unless it directly attempts to insult the students or the culture). But gender i feel isnt really one of those things.

A brief confession on Dokdo: Id be much much less keen on doing dokdo precisely because i WOULD end up saying something explosive being that i lived in japan and have fond memories of japanese people. Basically I personally would be unable to remain above the discussion and would feel a burning need to try and change any opinions i deemed 'incorrect'. So really its actually because i CAN deal with gender in a much more neutral manner that its on the table.

Indeed gender can be dealt with on so many different levels and provide so many differing opinions about how students relate to their own field and perspective that it would make a great topic for discussion. Just so long as its not bracketed by a massive title implying some kind of concrete theme: GENDER

Plus, when you have people saying things like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6306685.stm

its like the lessons make themselves. (though i wont be dealing with that because im not entirely sure whether the real nasty context behind it could be handled maturely. Plus i very much doubt parents even want me talking to their kids about anything that can potentially be linked to sex in one easy step no matter how well intentioned).

So yeah, either more troll bait, or maybe a contextualising of the thread. I hope its seen as the latter and we can stop the goading now. Theres really no point Im still of course receptive to specific ideas or specific appropriate and fun discussion topics that arent too heavy. But obviously its being done, its just we need to go back to the theme of that first post on HOW it can be done

[jurassic82]

Ippy, stay away from teaching feminism to your students. I think you are trying to send a message that unfortunatly most of your students won't get. Maybe teach a Social Studies class in your winter camp and touch on the feminst movement a little bit. I actually did that a year ago with an after school immersion program that I was teaching at my public school. Your intentions are great but I feel it is going to be a waste of time. Spend less time on this board writing disertation type responses and more time on your winter camp. If you focus just as much effort into your camp as you do on this board I am sure it will be great. Good Luck!

[ippy]

haha, dont mind that I like (over) explaining things

[passport220]

[ippy]

Ill tell you what, i think ive said all i need to say about it. If you couldnt follow it, mores the pity, but not everyone is blessed with the ability to recognise and question their own loaded assumptions so i doubt ill bother adding to it by trying to explain how the term is being used once again. Lets just see how it goes. And if it totally bombs, ill be sure to come back and say you were right. I really will. Ill make it a point of self respect and personal pride

[ESL Milk "Everyday]

You know, if you had posted something like this earlier, I wouldn't have been so upset.

[ippy]

actually when you started talking to other people in the thread you were offering genuinely good advice, so i realised you werent so dogmatic as you maybe came across whilst chatting directly to me

[passport220]