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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| earthquakez wrote: |
| They are not a 'race' - Koreans today are a mix of ethnicities and always have been. |
I agree with most of what you said, however not this. People on the Korean peninsula started as various ethnic groups/tribes. But over time, the longer one group dominates, the dominating culture, and language, often assimilates whatever differing ethnic groups there may have been. After close to 700 years under the Joseon dynasty and 400 years under the previous Goryeo dynasty, Koreans have essentially become one ethnicity. That is almost 1100 years under only 2 different ruling classes. Proof of it is if you travel from one end of the Korean peninsula to the other, the culture and language are essentially the same.
And whatever large waves of immigrants that have entered Korea have long been assimilated, I believe the last big one was about 500 years ago when the Ming dynasty in China fell. |
I appreciate your rational discussion but I believe it is based on a misapplication of the word 'race'.
If you look at people like the native Irish (not the transplanted English or Scots there) and their old, distinctive culture, Gaelic language and old primary documents that list their ways, scholastic influence and and interaction such as trading with other peoples long before the English gained their influence in Ireland under the Tudors they certainly come under the same homogenous grouping that you apply to the Koreans.
However, the Irish like the Koreans cannot be called a 'race'. They certainly belong to the groups of peoples who were found over Europe, have old and distinctive cultural traits and language in common, and share the name Celtic to distinguish them. There is a Celtic race. There are other races of course.
However, there is no Korean race in the sense I outlined above. There were no groups that shared an identity like the example given of the Celts predominating in Asia that can come under a title like 'Korean race'. This is simply Korean nationalism applying propaganda retrospectively.
In similar fashion there is no Japanese 'race'. Japan consists of people who are descended from Polynesians, Malays, other South East Asian groups, Koreans and Han Chinese. They were not found as distinct groups of people living in Asia that could be grouped as 'Japanese' before they entered Japan.
The outcast group of people living in Korea known as the Paekchong were and are descended from an Asian minority group. Jeollanam Do was known as the slave province for centuries and it's a good bet that slavery was largely because of the particular ethnicity of the enslaved. I doubt their enslavers thought of them as part of the 'Korean race' - especially as they themselves had no concept of that.
And no I am not of Irish descent. And about Hangeul - it is borrowed from the Kitan writing system although I admit it also has similarities to Sanskrit. Hangeul is as Korean as Hanja (Chinese writing system) and as Japanese as Kanji (Chinese writing system,). That is - not Korean.
Just like many aspects of 'Korean' culture it was borrowed - the high culture coming from China. I think you'll find the way in which so much was borrowed from China, including Confucianism which was made more extreme in some aspects, and Korea's being content to be a vassal of China for so long, points to the ancestry of most of the Korean ruling classes and it was identifiably Chinese. I am sure the Korean elites acknowledged that. |
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JeffersonDarcy2010
Joined: 05 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
All koreans come from China originally anyway.
When Koreans migrate back there, they're simply returning home. |
So, Koreans are not actually "pure blood"? OMG, they have something Chinese in them! I wonder how many of them would like to kill you now!  |
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JeffersonDarcy2010
Joined: 05 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| Back to the topic, some North Koreans do immigrate to Russia. I've seen some North Koreans as far as Ukraine. They usually buy some farm land and make living from farming. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:34 am Post subject: |
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earthquakez wrote-
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| the murderous rivalry and power struggles between the left and right wing factions of Koreans after WW2 finished whereby Koreans on both sides willingly slaughtered each other including women and children in what was brutal, ongoing civil conflict. |
Yes, the right wing included most of the elite who had collaborated with the Japanese for money and position at the expense of penury and subjugation for his fellow Korean. They were reinstated into their government and police posts by the US military gov't, which enraged those on the "left", meaning anyone who hadn't been a Japan collaborator and envisioned liberation from the rule of the perfidious right.
The conflicts which ensued as a result of US military gov't policy as people struggled for their independance led to the outbreak of the Korean War. In other words, it was not simply due to the reported invasion from the North on June 25, 1950 (this "fact" is also somewaht less convincing as MacCarther's official biographer claimed that he was in a train carriage with the general when a message was relayed that the war was on- due to the South attacking positions in the North), it was already a foregone conclusion by that point.
So in a sense the reluctance of US historians to discuss topics like this somewhat mirrors the Korean historians' deflective tendencies. Or it may be that those who do discuss are not given the same level of support by the government as those who do not.
| Quote: |
| a weak and backwards Korea that was ripe for being a pawn in the European-Japanese colonial rivalries and was the real reason for Korea's falling under Japanese colonisation |
They were indeed weak and backwards as a result of the Joseon Dynasty's 500 year policy of kowtowing to China. Some Koreans who have studied history claim that the founder of the Joseon, General Yi Song-gye, was in fact not Korean, but may have been Manchurian or even Chinese by birth, and collaborated with China to overthrow Koryo, which had sent the General to carry out a campaign against the Chinese in the northwest reaches of Koryo territory. People may debate this point (the Wikipedia entry denies it, which is somewhat telling as a lot of people are not even aware of the issue), but what ensued after Joseon came to power was a suppression of Korean Buddhism and a rigid implementation of Chinese Confucian policies, and a general lack of original thought and culture, as well as a cessation of expansionist campaigns against China. This may be contrasted with the brilliance of the Baekje culture, which formed the basis of Japanese Yamato culture (the Baekje fled to Japan on ocean-going vessels after losing a decisive battle, and took with them rice agriculture, bronze tools, horses, and intricate wood working skills, which immediately established its dominance over the indigenous stone tool hunter-gatherers. The famous Japanese temple Horyu-ji is one example of the Baekje's level of culture).
The Joseon elite got into the habit of collaborating with the Chinese, which led to collaborating with the occupying Japanese, and then led to collaborating with US forces.
@Junior
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All koreans come from China originally anyway.
When Koreans migrate back there, they're simply returning home. |
Sorry, Koreans' origins are traceable to Mongolian Altaic-speaking tribes. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:11 am Post subject: |
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@legradne
The Americans really lucked out on South Korea. They supported Lee Seung-Man but he was corrupt, and for the 10 years he was in power South Korea didn't have any economic growth, since most of the money was being pocketed.
Because of this Park Jung-Hee had an opportunity to seize power with very little opposition. The Americans never liked Park Jung-Hee, but he laid the economic foundations of the South Korea today.
Anyways, just imagine if the left were allowed to take power after WWII. If they had full elections the communists, or some closely aligned party, would most likely have won in a landslide. Then you'd have Kim Jong-Il, or someone like KJI, in power. No way would a unified Korea under control of the left become the 12 largest economy in the world.
Sorry, I just find it fascinated how by changing one thing would probably totally change the outcome of things. |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:19 am Post subject: |
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Yes, he's known more commonly as Syngman Ree, isn't he?
He wasn't good post liberation but I think the South Koreans have disowned the positive contribution he made in many ways during the Independence struggle. They always say he had Kim Gu assassinated.
Now there's a morally ambivalent character. Yes, his contribution is undeniable. But getting others to assassinate Japanese leaders is one thing (and civilians in China, murders of J civilians in villages in Manchuria and elsewhere were no problem for Kim Gu) but he also had Koreans assassinated and it's highly debatable whether they all were collaborators in the real sense.
He was a real man of violence and personally I can't feel sympathy for his being assassinated when he so cold bloodedly ordered the deaths of others. |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Legrande - great food for thought there. The Joseon Dynasty undermined the freer nature of previous Korean society, especially the rights and privileges women had.
In some cultures the elites are different ethnically from those they subjugated by one means or another. Regardless of the Joseon Dynasty founder's ethnicity/ancestry, the shifts in the society made do point to a new cultural influence at work. Shamanism was not viewed too kindly by the new dynasty and I know Shamanistic shrines often co existed with Buddhist temples.
I am aware of the lasting influence Korean clans had on Japanese culture and history. Some Japanese are aware of that. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 7:44 am Post subject: |
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@jvalmer
| Quote: |
The Americans never liked Park Jung-Hee, but he laid the economic foundations of the South Korea today.
Yes, a lot of Koreans never liked Park Jung-hee as well. True, a lot of the foundations were laid during his time. However, it's perhaps less accurate to say he made it happen through brilliancy of mind and closer to the mark to say this military strongman copied (again, echoing the pattern laid down by Joseon for 500 years and the Japan/US collaborationists) Japan's route to economic success-gain access to US markets and tailor one's production of goods towards those markets.
To be granted the golden key of access, Park sent 300,000 ROK troops and 100,000 'volunteers' to Vietnam between 1965-1973. Ratio-wise to total population this is about the same number that the US sent. So Park really didn't actually build ROK's economy on his own so much as allow Korea to be the US' 'boy'.
Anyways, just imagine if the left were allowed to take power after WWII. If they had full elections the communists, or some closely aligned party, would most likely have won in a landslide. Then you'd have Kim Jong-Il, or someone like KJI, in power. No way would a unified Korea under control of the left become the 12 largest economy in the world. |
Yeah, who knows what would've happened. It's fair to say you'd probably have seen a government more representative of the people's will at the time. This would have influenced the struggles going on in Japan at the time. It could've become a completely different ballgame.
Be that as it may, South Korea has ridden the US' back to become the #12 economy. So is Korea better off being divided, with a derelict, abandoned and abused brother to the North, and an opportunist, 'money-and work-is-all' US collaborator in the South?
I take a look at the young people in the ROK nowadays, to see what these policies have resulted in, and see a lot of emphasis on surface appearances, similar to what occurred in Japan in the 1980's, when the left-leaning student movements were abandoned for "the good life" of material excess. A lot of resources used up in order to look good and have everything done the easy way. I look at the uni students of today, who rather than study philosophy and struggle with issues of national identity, look forward to when they'll have enough money for plastic surgery, to speak nothing of their effort in the classroom. One also notes that South Korea has the highest rate of suicide amongst OECD countries, with Japan a close second; selling (or being compelled to sell) your soul comes with a certain price.
You know, if war breaks out again, I think we'll have even more questions to consider. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 7:50 am Post subject: |
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@jvalmer
Sorry I messed up your quote, here's a redo-
| Quote: |
| The Americans never liked Park Jung-Hee, but he laid the economic foundations of the South Korea today. |
Yes, a lot of Koreans never liked Park Jung-hee as well. True, a lot of the foundations were laid during his time. However, it's perhaps less accurate to say he made it happen through brilliancy of mind and closer to the mark to say this military strongman copied (again, echoing the pattern laid down by Joseon for 500 years and the Japan/US collaborationists) Japan's route to economic success-gain access to US markets and tailor one's production of goods towards those markets.
To be granted the golden key of access, Park sent 300,000 ROK troops and 100,000 'volunteers' to Vietnam between 1965-1973. Ratio-wise to total population this is about the same number that the US sent. So Park really didn't actually build ROK's economy on his own so much as allow Korea to be the US' 'boy'.
| Quote: |
| Anyways, just imagine if the left were allowed to take power after WWII. If they had full elections the communists, or some closely aligned party, would most likely have won in a landslide. Then you'd have Kim Jong-Il, or someone like KJI, in power. No way would a unified Korea under control of the left become the 12 largest economy in the world. |
Yeah, who knows what would've happened. It's fair to say you'd probably have seen a government more representative of the people's will at the time. This would have influenced the struggles going on in Japan at the time. It could've become a completely different ballgame.
Be that as it may, South Korea has ridden the US' back to become the #12 economy. So is Korea better off being divided, with a derelict, abandoned and abused brother to the North, and an opportunist, 'money-and work-is-all' US collaborator in the South?
I take a look at the young people in the ROK nowadays, to see what these policies have resulted in, and see a lot of emphasis on surface appearances, similar to what occurred in Japan in the 1980's, when the left-leaning student movements were abandoned for "the good life" of material excess. A lot of resources used up in order to look good and have everything done the easy way. I look at the uni students of today, who rather than study philosophy and struggle with issues of national identity, look forward to when they'll have enough money for plastic surgery, to speak nothing of their effort in the classroom. One also notes that South Korea has the highest rate of suicide amongst OECD countries, with Japan a close second; selling (or being compelled to sell) your soul comes with a certain price.
You know, if war breaks out again, I think we'll have even more questions to consider. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| legrande wrote: |
@jvalmer
Sorry I messed up your quote, here's a redo-
| Quote: |
| The Americans never liked Park Jung-Hee, but he laid the economic foundations of the South Korea today. |
Yes, a lot of Koreans never liked Park Jung-hee as well. True, a lot of the foundations were laid during his time. However, it's perhaps less accurate to say he made it happen through brilliancy of mind and closer to the mark to say this military strongman copied (again, echoing the pattern laid down by Joseon for 500 years and the Japan/US collaborationists) Japan's route to economic success-gain access to US markets and tailor one's production of goods towards those markets.
To be granted the golden key of access, Park sent 300,000 ROK troops and 100,000 'volunteers' to Vietnam between 1965-1973. Ratio-wise to total population this is about the same number that the US sent. So Park really didn't actually build ROK's economy on his own so much as allow Korea to be the US' 'boy'. . |
I'm not saying it was his brilliance, I'm just saying that the Yanks got lucky on how it turned out. A lot of countries have received lots of aid money and just too many have just squandered it away. If some other military strongman took power I'm not too sure if the money SK received would have been used as effectively. In hindsight, Park Jung-Hee was a godsend.
Anyways, I'd say if Korea were unified, it would most likely have been under the North's control. The Americans made a huge miscalculation on this one after WWII. And if Korea were unified at that point Korea would probably look a lot like NK is now. |
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carleverson
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: North Koreans escaping into Russia instead of China? |
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| Zackback wrote: |
| The very top northwest border of North Korea is with Russia. With many trying to flee into China I was wondering if there have been accounts of North Koreans escaping into Russia at this border. |
Don't you mean "northeast" border??? |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| legrande wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Anyways, just imagine if the left were allowed to take power after WWII. If they had full elections the communists, or some closely aligned party, would most likely have won in a landslide. Then you'd have Kim Jong-Il, or someone like KJI, in power. No way would a unified Korea under control of the left become the 12 largest economy in the world. |
Yeah, who knows what would've happened. It's fair to say you'd probably have seen a government more representative of the people's will at the time. This would have influenced the struggles going on in Japan at the time. It could've become a completely different ballgame.
Be that as it may, South Korea has ridden the US' back to become the #12 economy. So is Korea better off being divided, with a derelict, abandoned and abused brother to the North, and an opportunist, 'money-and work-is-all' US collaborator in the South?
I take a look at the young people in the ROK nowadays, to see what these policies have resulted in, and see a lot of emphasis on surface appearances, similar to what occurred in Japan in the 1980's, when the left-leaning student movements were abandoned for "the good life" of material excess. A lot of resources used up in order to look good and have everything done the easy way. I look at the uni students of today, who rather than study philosophy and struggle with issues of national identity, look forward to when they'll have enough money for plastic surgery, to speak nothing of their effort in the classroom. One also notes that South Korea has the highest rate of suicide amongst OECD countries, with Japan a close second; selling (or being compelled to sell) your soul comes with a certain price.
You know, if war breaks out again, I think we'll have even more questions to consider. |
Yes, I think accidentally Korea turned out better being divided. It probably wouldn't have mattered if a unified Korea was more American, or Communist leaning, it most likely would have been an economic basket case.
As for going after Japanese collaborators, it depends on what you define as collaborating. A lot of people were involve with the Japanese. And if a Korean had any brains, he/she basically had to go to Japan for higher education. Most of the money was in the hands of Japanese collaborators, and it's that money you would need for any economic development. Sure, punish them, but you can't seize their money and go on a witch hunt and punish their descendants. |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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I think under occupation collaboration on the normal scale will occur in terms of just going about daily life and having normal employment - by that I don't mean as oppressors of your own people or doing the filthy work of your occupiers by torturing and killing your own people in prisons. What they don't tell you is that Seodamun Prison and other places were staffed by 100 percent Koreans as well as Japanese.
And who can blame Koreans for seeking educational opportunities in Japan? As well as unskilled work opportunities which unskilled Koreans went to Japan to do, sometimes voluntary. The myth of forced labour for all Koreans is very strong but it's just not true.
The real collaborators were those who became well heeled or wealthy by rushing to embrace the occupiers and gain advantages for themselves at the expense of their fellow Koreans. The ones who thought oppression and murder of Koreans was just the price you paid for becoming the partner of the Japanese in some wonderful Asiatic new order.
Korean elites certainly did this although there were yangban who were active in the resistance movements.
The Eulsa 5 were certainly collaborators in the true sense - they decided that the Japanese had the upper hand so they went along with the annexation. They didn't have to. They could have fled the country and started an alternative power structure or worked with those who did.
Re legrand's points about the student movement - I differ from the popular view that the leftwingers in Yeosu and Jeju etc were true democrats and marvellous people. The atrocities committed by both the left and right say much about the fanaticism and hatred among many in postwar Korea. No ruling authority would tolerate murderous attacks including gouging out policemen's eyes and mutilating them and their corpses without calling in heavy reinforcements.
I am not unhappy that leftist student movements don't exist as such in Korea anymore. There's evidence from their own mouths that those Gwangju students brought the heavy response from the Sth Korean military govt on themselves. What was a people's spirited response to oppressive troops (seizing weapons, taking over the city) became foolhardy extremism. The students outvoted the more realistic who knew that to not have a negotiation would result in disaster.
Yet the militant Gwanju students agreed to keep fighting the military govt's representatives. We all know where that ended up. If you fight a government by arms it is an insurgency regardless of that government's rights and wrongs. It will be put down in the manner of what happens in war because armed struggle IS war. The Gwanju students and other militants refused to negotiate despite the views of more realistic people.
I for one am glad there is not a left wing student movement in Korea. The spite and irrationality of left wing groups here is bad enough as is the current of racist nationalism that runs through some of them.
While there seem to be a lot of young Korean people who have an unthinking nationalism and anti foreigner views despite the fact that everything they enjoy comes mostly from foreigners, at least they are not taking to the streets to demonstrate and engage in hate speech like the 'Crazy Cow' idiots. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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@earthquakez
Yeah, I agree that both sides went a little overboard at times , but you have to remember that atrocities commited by civilians (any person not supporting the US view of things was labeled "leftist", regardless of whether they were actually moderate or just wanted an alternative to the collaborators being reinstated) were in response to the same people being reinstated by the US military gov't who had oppressed civilians for 35 years. Further, the scale of atrocities commited by the right aligned with US forces far outweighs anything done by civilians- at least 100,000 killed via systematic executions in 1950 alone after the formal start of the Korean War.
It was due to the student movements in Gwangju that the US backing an oppressive military dictator system was jetttisoned in favor of democratic presidential elections, which led to the dramatic developments which transformed the ROK during the 90's and early 2000's. Under the guidance of Noble Peace Prize winner Kim Dae Jung, the ROK reached new peaks (i.e. successful hosting of the World Cup, establishment of Pusan International Film Festival).
Kim Dae Jung was an opposition leader (often villified as a "coomunist") who was sentenced to death by the US-backed military gov't for his role in the Gwangju uprisings. It is due to his efforts and Korean people like him that ROK citizens enjoy the freedoms that they do, not foreigners.
It is sa |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:11 am Post subject: |
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@earthquakez
Yeah, I agree that both sides went a little overboard at times , but you have to remember that atrocities commited by civilians (any person not supporting the US view of things was labeled "leftist", regardless of whether they were actually moderate or just wanted an alternative to the collaborators being reinstated) were in response to the same people being reinstated by the US military gov't who had oppressed civilians for 35 years. Further, the scale of atrocities commited by the right aligned with US forces far outweighs anything done by civilians- at least 100,000 killed via systematic executions in 1950 alone after the formal start of the Korean War.
It was due to the student movements in Gwangju that the US backing an oppressive military dictator system was jettisoned in favor of democratic presidential elections, which led to the dramatic developments which transformed the ROK during the 90's and early 2000's. Under the guidance of Noble Peace Prize winner Kim Dae Jung, the ROK reached new peaks (i.e. successful hosting of the World Cup, establishment of Pusan International Film Festival).
Kim Dae Jung was an opposition leader (often villified as a "communist") who was sentenced to death by the US-backed military gov't for his role in the Gwangju uprisings. It is due to his efforts and Korean people like him that ROK citizens enjoy the freedoms that they do, not foreigners. |
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