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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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 Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| shifty wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| excaza wrote: |
| Can someone explain to me why we're trying to find morality in war? |
Sure. There is a meaningful difference between blowing up soldiers and blowing up their wives and kids. Both are immoral, but one is more immoral. If we delude ourselves into accepting the justification for horrors more horrors will follow. The state has a pre-packaged set of talking points to send off to the media and into our minds. |
This is NOT true. In the 2nd WW the Brits were a maritime nation. Their Soviet allies were often at the point of throwing the towel in. If the Russians had in fact done so, made a seperate peace, it would have spelled doom for the women and children of England.
The Brits had put in all they had to avert war, however misguided their policies.
During the war the only way they could assist the Russians was to prosecute a bombing war, having no regard for precision.
The Brits were also aware of the straits of the Jews in the prewar years and what the nazis were really about. The German nation as a whole had accepted Nazism as a form of religion. If anyone deserved to be indiscriminately bombed, they did. |
To prevent my taking this thread into a whole other galaxy, I'll just issue a blanket disagree with every single word above. |
+1 |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| When you bomb a country, you have to be prepared for that country to bring hell to your citizens. |
Yeah well, when you're an elite that sort of thing really doesn't matter much. It's not civilians that bomb countries. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
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| Yes, the incineration of humans at Hiroshima was justifiable. I think between the Holocaust and the slaughter of the Chinese, you have estimates of 10 million to 20 million dead. It had to end. And that end had to be complete destruction of the expansionist ideology that birthed such carnage: the annihilation of fascism. |
Fascism is the merger of state and corporate power. In present times, this merger of state and corporate power have given us "cost plus" wealth creation in Iraq. What would an Iraqi retort to your post above? |
Your Iraq analogy is flawed. Do you really think if the Iraqis detonated a nuclear device over Seattle it would end the war in Iraq? Hiroshima (1) ended the war and (2) saved lives. If it hadn't, the action wouldn't have been justifiable. Any action the Iraqis take that ends the war and saves lives would also be justifiable.
Your description of fascism omits the expansionism, racial superiority, and root justification of the historical phenomenon. Fascism justified itself by territorial expansion and aggression. Total and complete victory destroyed even the idea of fascism, as the most undeniable refutation. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Yes, the incineration of humans at Hiroshima was justifiable. I think between the Holocaust and the slaughter of the Chinese, you have estimates of 10 million to 20 million dead. It had to end. And that end had to be complete destruction of the expansionist ideology that birthed such carnage: the annihilation of fascism. |
Fascism is the merger of state and corporate power. In present times, this merger of state and corporate power have given us "cost plus" wealth creation in Iraq. What would an Iraqi retort to your post above? |
Yes, and let's not forget who funded fascism (and communism): the same people who funded the Manhattan Project. Wall Street was instrumental in building up Hitler. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Yes, the incineration of humans at Hiroshima was justifiable. I think between the Holocaust and the slaughter of the Chinese, you have estimates of 10 million to 20 million dead. It had to end. And that end had to be complete destruction of the expansionist ideology that birthed such carnage: the annihilation of fascism. |
Fascism is the merger of state and corporate power. In present times, this merger of state and corporate power have given us "cost plus" wealth creation in Iraq. What would an Iraqi retort to your post above? |
Your Iraq analogy is flawed. Do you really think if the Iraqis detonated a nuclear device over Seattle it would end the war in Iraq? Hiroshima (1) ended the war and (2) saved lives. If it hadn't, the action wouldn't have been justifiable. Any action the Iraqis take that ends the war and saves lives would also be justifiable. |
Fine, then you drop a couple more over New York, LA, Chicago, DC, and maybe a few over your home town just for kicks. As many as it takes to get the US military out of Iraq. Would it then become justifiable? |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
To prevent my taking this thread into a whole other galaxy. |
Well, there you've just gone and won the whole argument. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Yes, the incineration of humans at Hiroshima was justifiable. I think between the Holocaust and the slaughter of the Chinese, you have estimates of 10 million to 20 million dead. It had to end. And that end had to be complete destruction of the expansionist ideology that birthed such carnage: the annihilation of fascism. |
Fascism is the merger of state and corporate power. In present times, this merger of state and corporate power have given us "cost plus" wealth creation in Iraq. What would an Iraqi retort to your post above? |
Your Iraq analogy is flawed. Do you really think if the Iraqis detonated a nuclear device over Seattle it would end the war in Iraq? Hiroshima (1) ended the war and (2) saved lives. If it hadn't, the action wouldn't have been justifiable. Any action the Iraqis take that ends the war and saves lives would also be justifiable. |
Fine, then you drop a couple more over New York, LA, Chicago, DC, and maybe a few over your home town just for kicks. As many as it takes to get the US military out of Iraq. Would it then become justifiable? |
Ridiculous. You're not even trying to set up a comparable or proportional scenario, you're just trying to appeal to my emotions.
And yes, the Empire of Japan was very different, and much worse, from today's American Empire. The fascism of WWII wasn't simply state + corporate power. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Your Iraq analogy is flawed. Do you really think if the Iraqis detonated a nuclear device over Seattle it would end the war in Iraq?
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If America was totally defeated and making moves for a conditional settlement then yes.
| Quote: |
| Hiroshima (1) ended the war and (2) saved lives. |
It saved lives only IF one accepts that the other option was invasion because total unconditional surrender was the only acceptable outcome. If one does not accept that total unconditional surrender was the only acceptable outcome, then the dichotomy falls apart.
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| Total and complete victory destroyed even the idea of fascism, as the most undeniable refutation. |
What? There are fascist states that exist today. Which country has these two in loads:
expansionism
racial superiority
So, off to war with Israel then? |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Ridiculous. You're not even trying to set up a comparable or proportional scenario, you're just trying to appeal to my emotions.
And yes, the Empire of Japan was very different, and much worse, from today's American Empire. The fascism of WWII wasn't simply state + corporate power. |
No, I'm trying to appeal to your sense of principle. I'm not trying to say the US and Japanese empires are exactly the same, I'm simply drawing parallels. Whether one was "worse" or not (both being bad), the same principles apply.
Last edited by visitorq on Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
It saved lives only IF one accepts that the other option was invasion because total unconditional surrender was the only acceptable outcome. |
Wait. Where was it established that Japan would have accepted X or Y conditions for surrender? Anyway, yes, the Empire of Japan's foreign holdings had to be dissolved and relinquished. Hiroshima was an efficient route to this outcome. Again, Hiroshima doesn't have to have been the best action (that would be too high a standard), it only has to have been justifiable.
| Quote: |
Quote:
Your Iraq analogy is flawed. Do you really think if the Iraqis detonated a nuclear device over Seattle it would end the war in Iraq?
If America was totally defeated and making moves for a conditional settlement then yes. |
The nuclear analogy just doesn't work. There's a monumental difference between detonating the first bomb in a race to get to the bomb, and detonating a bomb in a world where a dozen powers also have the bomb, and another dozen have the technology to make one but are holding back.
But, sure, there are situations where Iraq might slay American civilians and it would be justifiable. Of course, Iraq wouldn't do that now, because it is a US-supported independent government (yet another reason why the analogy is bizarre).
| mises wrote: |
Which country has these two in loads:
expansionism
racial superiority
So, off to war with Israel then? |
Rape of Nanking? Stalingrad? Annexation of Czechoslovakia? Invasion of Poland? The Holocaust?
All Israel really has is the USS Panay. Anyway, your suggestion was meant to be absurd. Before WWII, the Allies tried to live with fascism. So far, at least, the world can coexist with Israel. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Yes, the incineration of humans at Hiroshima was justifiable. I think between the Holocaust and the slaughter of the Chinese, you have estimates of 10 million to 20 million dead. It had to end. And that end had to be complete destruction of the expansionist ideology that birthed such carnage: the annihilation of fascism. |
Fascism is the merger of state and corporate power. In present times, this merger of state and corporate power have given us "cost plus" wealth creation in Iraq. What would an Iraqi retort to your post above? |
Your Iraq analogy is flawed. Do you really think if the Iraqis detonated a nuclear device over Seattle it would end the war in Iraq? Hiroshima (1) ended the war and (2) saved lives. If it hadn't, the action wouldn't have been justifiable. Any action the Iraqis take that ends the war and saves lives would also be justifiable. |
Fine, then you drop a couple more over New York, LA, Chicago, DC, and maybe a few over your home town just for kicks. As many as it takes to get the US military out of Iraq. Would it then become justifiable? |
Ridiculous. You're not even trying to set up a comparable or proportional scenario, you're just trying to appeal to my emotions.
And yes, the Empire of Japan was very different, and much worse, from today's American Empire. The fascism of WWII wasn't simply state + corporate power. |
No, I'm trying to appeal to your sense of principle. I'm not trying to say the US and Japanese empires are exactly the same, I'm simply drawing parallels. Whether one was "worse" or not (both being bad), the same principles apply. |
Yes, the same principles apply. The Americans certainly committed war crimes against the Japanese: I would say Nagasaki was one. Indeed, Hiroshima WOULD HAVE BEEN a war crime itself, but I believe justification serves as the defense. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Wait. Where was it established that Japan would have accepted X or Y conditions for surrender? |
Where was it established that Japan wouldn't have. You are justifying the bombing. The burden is on you.
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| ... analogy is bizarre). |
The analogy is assuming quite a few factors, which I know you know and understand. I don't find your criticism to be persuasive.
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| Rape of Nanking? Stalingrad? Annexation of Czechoslovakia? Invasion of Poland? The Holocaust? |
And of the "Russian" slaughter of the Ukrainians? Poles? Lithuanians? I do hope you would have supported a war against the Soviets to stop them.
Since we're talking about Germany lets talk about Germany. The Nazi's were a reaction to the Bolsheviks and attempts to bring a communist system in Germany. Had they not meddled and killed tens of millions of people in the Baltic states, Poland, Ukraine and Russia, the Nazi reaction would not have happened. The Nazi's were the reaction to a declared ethnic, political, economic total war. I would have attacked the Soviet Union with every weapon at my disposal. What were Germans supposed to do? Lie down and take Bolshevism at home? Allow the Cheka to kill all doctors and lawyers and professors in Germany too? Let's not act as if history started the day Hitler came to power.
http://mises.org/daily/4322
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| The facts regarding the Ukrainian terror famine of the early 1930s and the Stalinist gulag were also known in broad outline in European right-wing circles. When all is said and done, Nolte concludes, "the Gulag came before Auschwitz." If it had not been for what happened in Soviet Russia, European fascism, especially Nazism and the Nazi massacre of the Jews,[8] would most probably not have been what they were. |
The greatest crime was Russian and Chinese communism. We sided with the Russians (for some reason). The Chinese just did as they pleased. And America nuked Japan. Kuros, your story is not convincing.
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| So far, at least, the world can coexist with Israel. |
As long as Turkey, Egypt and Iran are hamstrung by the US/EU etc then yes "the world" will do just fine. Once those states are free from our meddling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IaWbyuBOA0
What go around come around. In my argument I am - essentially - making the argument that it would not be acceptable to attack American civilians to defeat the American elite. That is my agenda here. I'm on your team Kuros. I don't want 'what go around to come around'. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Wait. Where was it established that Japan would have accepted X or Y conditions for surrender? |
Where was it established that Japan wouldn't have. You are justifying the bombing. The burden is on you. |
The Soviet gulags were disgusting. But don't place Japanese expansionism to the side. The Japanese hadn't merely attacked Pearl Harbor out of the blue. They first took all necessary actions to conquer East Asia, including attacking (and losing) to the Russians at Khalykin Gol.
Look, if you want to believe that leaving Japan alone after all that happened would have been a good strategy, there's no eloquence I can muster that will stop you. But in addition to the menace of fascism, you have to remember: there was a race to the bomb. The Germans, and even the Japanese, were close.
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| What were Germans supposed to do? Lie down and take Bolshevism at home? Allow the Cheka to kill all doctors and lawyers and professors in Germany too? Let's not act as if history started the day Hitler came to power. |
The terror the Nazis wreaked upon Eastern Europe was legendary and well documented. Compare it to the Allied occupation of Japan and Germany, and its like night and day. Libertarian sympathy for Nazi Germany is just frakking bizarre.
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| And of the "Russian" slaughter of the Ukrainians? Poles? Lithuanians? I do hope you would have supported a war against the Soviets to stop them. |
No, you don't get to determine my positions and carve out my principles. That's not how this works. |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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Kuros and shifty: please stop the magical chants about how evil America's enemies were.
Mises and VQ: please stop the tu quoque argumentation.
Kuros: please stop the hypothetical tu quoque argumentation which you are buttressing with aforesaid magic chants. |
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excaza
Joined: 27 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Yes, and let's not forget who funded fascism (and communism): the same people who funded the Manhattan Project. Wall Street was instrumental in building up Hitler. |
Ah yes, those crafty Italian Wall Street Jews.
oop...sorry, you hadn't gotten around to blaming the Jews yet. |
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