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Zackback
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk
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 Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:11 pm Post subject: Most disciplined and most undisciplined students in Asia? |
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| Who are the most disciplined and most undisciplined students in Asia? |
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Louis VI
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Location: In my Kingdom
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| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Everyone I've heard from who has taught both has said Thai kids are less disciplined than Korean kids. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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I taught in Japan, Taiwan and Korea... they were all pretty much the same.
Last edited by ESL Milk "Everyday on Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tamada
Joined: 02 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Louis VI wrote: |
| Everyone I've heard from who has taught both has said Thai kids are less disciplined than Korean kids. |
I've taught both.
I found older Thai (uni) students to have a lot more social skills, character and personality than their Korean counterparts.
As for kids....this is what I found.
Thai kids work better in groups than Korean kids.
Thai kids were much more imaginative and creative.
Thai kids were generally much more spoilt than Korean kids.
Thai kids had zero discipline in the home.
Admin and Thai teachers take the side of the Thai student almost always. Yes I know this happens in Korea too, but it's worse in Thailand.
So overall, I would say young Thai kids are much worse behaved than Korean kids and most of this is down to the parents completely spoiling them and never ever disciplining their kids. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting how the word discipline is used in this thread. In the OP, it was used to mean the behavior of the kids. Later the usage was switched to mean punish, control, or correct. Just an observation.
I can't speak for the other countries, but the girl's middle school that I taught my first year here was famous city-wide for it's discipline-they did not spare the rod!!But it was not 100% effective as I still had my share of undisciplined snotty girls.  |
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Tamada
Joined: 02 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
Interesting how the word discipline is used in this thread. In the OP, it was used to mean the behavior of the kids. Later the usage was switched to mean punish, control, or correct. Just an observation.
I can't speak for the other countries, but the girl's middle school that I taught my first year here was famous city-wide for it's discipline-they did not spare the rod!!But it was not 100% effective as I still had my share of undisciplined snotty girls. |
Discipline doesn't always mean hitting ya know? Any good teacher or parent would know this.  |
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Radius
Joined: 20 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| Tamada wrote: |
| Sector7G wrote: |
Interesting how the word discipline is used in this thread. In the OP, it was used to mean the behavior of the kids. Later the usage was switched to mean punish, control, or correct. Just an observation.
I can't speak for the other countries, but the girl's middle school that I taught my first year here was famous city-wide for it's discipline-they did not spare the rod!!But it was not 100% effective as I still had my share of undisciplined snotty girls. |
Discipline doesn't always mean hitting ya know? Any good teacher or parent would know this. |
no not always, but you can't totally take it out of the equation either! When kids have no fear of punishment, they run the place and they know it. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| Radius wrote: |
| no not always, but you can't totally take it out of the equation either! When kids have no fear of punishment, they run the place and they know it. |
Corporal punishment was never on the table at any of the schools I went to growing up, and classroom discipline was never a problem. You can totally take it off the table without the kids taking over. |
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Radius
Joined: 20 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Radius wrote: |
| no not always, but you can't totally take it out of the equation either! When kids have no fear of punishment, they run the place and they know it. |
Corporal punishment was never on the table at any of the schools I went to growing up, and classroom discipline was never a problem. You can totally take it off the table without the kids taking over. |
Let me ask you a question: Were the kids better behaved in the 50's and 60's or now? Around the time they took out corporal punishment is the same time the kids took over. Do you teach in American schools? I did and saw it. People mistake corporal punishment as beating a kid senseless. Thats not it.
Let me put it another way. Just as your mother would pull out of ole wooden soup spoon or your dad took off his belt and cracked it in the air, I knew he meant business and I stopped whatever it was I was doing. It worked. Corporal punishment should be part of the repertoire (mostly as a scare tactic)--not the end all be all. |
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machoman
Joined: 11 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:37 am Post subject: |
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i taught in china two years ago. the campus housed two separate middle schools, one private, one public. the public school kids were the worse. they were rude, ignorant and downright smelly. i can't say anything about other asian kids.
i've taught in two different korean middle schools. the behavior has never been a serious problem for me. but china.... yeah, china was a different story.
as for the best kids... my girl students in korea are pretty awesome. studious, friendly, thoughtful. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| Radius wrote: |
Let me ask you a question: Were the kids better behaved in the 50's and 60's or now? Around the time they took out corporal punishment is the same time the kids took over. Do you teach in American schools? I did and saw it. People mistake corporal punishment as beating a kid senseless. Thats not it.
Let me put it another way. Just as your mother would pull out of ole wooden soup spoon or your dad took off his belt and cracked it in the air, I knew he meant business and I stopped whatever it was I was doing. It worked. Corporal punishment should be part of the repertoire (mostly as a scare tactic)--not the end all be all. |
But not all teachers need to use corporal punishment or threaten to use it, why is this? It appears to me that corporal punishment is an unnecessary tool whether it is effective or not. And that a failure in school policy and management is more to blame for unruly kids. Also as a scare tactic I thought it corporal punishment was very short term and doesn't address the disciplinary needs of the student. I've not worked in an American or British school, and wasn't alive during the 50's or 60's, so I may be a little naive. However, I'm more interested in actual research and the results of studies in school discipline than testimonies(though I'm not dismissing your personal experiences). Which also reminds me I wouldn't want to be a child in Ireland during the 50's like my father was. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| Radius wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Radius wrote: |
| no not always, but you can't totally take it out of the equation either! When kids have no fear of punishment, they run the place and they know it. |
Corporal punishment was never on the table at any of the schools I went to growing up, and classroom discipline was never a problem. You can totally take it off the table without the kids taking over. |
Let me ask you a question: Were the kids better behaved in the 50's and 60's or now? Around the time they took out corporal punishment is the same time the kids took over. Do you teach in American schools? I did and saw it. People mistake corporal punishment as beating a kid senseless. Thats not it.
Let me put it another way. Just as your mother would pull out of ole wooden soup spoon or your dad took off his belt and cracked it in the air, I knew he meant business and I stopped whatever it was I was doing. It worked. Corporal punishment should be part of the repertoire (mostly as a scare tactic)--not the end all be all. |
I went to school in Alberta, Canada and they stopped corporal punishment sometime in the late-80's, when I was in mid-elementary. By the time I hit junior and high school class behaviour was definitely going downhill and not ideal. Korean classrooms by comparison is heaven, even at all boys schools. Anyways, if the teacher had no confidence (which was a lot) the classroom experience was just horrible. Just say that if you weren't the studying type, then you would learn almost nothing.
I'm not sure if it's was because of the removal of corporal punishment, or the change in parenting habits to go coddle kids. |
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Lastrova
Joined: 30 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
| I taught in Japan, Taiwan and Korea... they were all pretty much the same. |
I've also taught in these countries--not Taiwan though--but China, Thailand, and Vietnam. The kids were pretty much the same except in one area. How coddled these kids were. Which translates in my book to how lovable they were. Often it comes down to over exposure. I'll let you work out the answers. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| Radius wrote: |
| Let me ask you a question: Were the kids better behaved in the 50's and 60's or now? Around the time they took out corporal punishment is the same time the kids took over. Do you teach in American schools? I did and saw it. People mistake corporal punishment as beating a kid senseless. Thats not it. |
So basically, you're saying that since the only thing that has changed in Western society since the 50s and 60s was the removal of corporal punishment from schools, the only logical conclusion is that this one thing must be the reason the kids 'took over'???
Corporal Punishment doesn't work-- all it usually does is give something for the bad kids to bond over. Its removal from schools provided the ultimate scapegoat for desperate teachers who don't know what else to do. In reality, the 'problem' in the west is much much larger than any one teacher... but there are still ways to deal with it.
Korean kids are usually 'well-behaved' because their teachers and their parents are capable of working together with the students to better their education. Here's my scale:
Best: Parents and teachers are deeply involved in the kids' education-- everyone wins in the long run. The kid has no real 'childhood' in the western sense... but they are definitely being raised very very very well, with lots of parental involvement from both sides. They have a great sense of responsibility and duty, as well as an important role in not only their immediate family, but the entire history of their family (something that is completely absent in much of the west). If most of your school is like this, then you are lucky... the only problem is that these kids are probably more mature than you are and will rightfully treat you in a condescending manner when they realize that you aren't at their level.
Good: Parents do what they can and teachers appreciate the effort, but ultimately the kids are given the freedom to have a childhood... so they're not as disciplined, but they're still really good kids. Average. These are probably my favorite students to teach. They come from good homes, but there's no ambition or 'push', and their lives are too light and free to really get too too serious about studying. They may be second-born sons or daughters from families with a son or two.
Not Good: Kids who are ignored by their rich parents and sent to hagwons where they make all kinds of rude demands of you (angry at adults) yet still bond well with the other kids and can turn them against you if they want. Also, kids who are ignored by their poor, drunken parents. Or kids who are not parented so much as controlled. They get no guidance at home, but chances are they're still beaten/put down when they screw up.
Worst: Kids who are spoiled at every turn and told they are wonderful and better than everyone, and whose parents are more 'us and them' than 'right and wrong'. These kids are barely even human, and their parents are 100% to blame. These are the kids that I would consider refusing to teach.
I'd say most Western kids are in the 'Good' category. Not many are in the 'Best'... definitely not as many as in Korea. Quite a few (too many) are in the 'Worst', and a few of the really problematic students are in the 'Not Good' category. |
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Radius
Joined: 20 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
| Radius wrote: |
| Let me ask you a question: Were the kids better behaved in the 50's and 60's or now? Around the time they took out corporal punishment is the same time the kids took over. Do you teach in American schools? I did and saw it. People mistake corporal punishment as beating a kid senseless. Thats not it. |
So basically, you're saying that since the only thing that has changed in Western society since the 50s and 60s was the removal of corporal punishment from schools, the only logical conclusion is that this one thing must be the reason the kids 'took over'???
Corporal Punishment doesn't work-- all it usually does is give something for the bad kids to bond over. Its removal from schools provided the ultimate scapegoat for desperate teachers who don't know what else to do. In reality, the 'problem' in the west is much much larger than any one teacher... but there are still ways to deal with it.
Korean kids are usually 'well-behaved' because their teachers and their parents are capable of working together with the students to better their education. Here's my scale:
Best: Parents and teachers are deeply involved in the kids' education-- everyone wins in the long run. The kid has no real 'childhood' in the western sense... but they are definitely being raised very very very well, with lots of parental involvement from both sides. They have a great sense of responsibility and duty, as well as an important role in not only their immediate family, but the entire history of their family (something that is completely absent in much of the west). If most of your school is like this, then you are lucky... the only problem is that these kids are probably more mature than you are and will rightfully treat you in a condescending manner when they realize that you aren't at their level.
Good: Parents do what they can and teachers appreciate the effort, but ultimately the kids are given the freedom to have a childhood... so they're not as disciplined, but they're still really good kids. Average. These are probably my favorite students to teach. They come from good homes, but there's no ambition or 'push', and their lives are too light and free to really get too too serious about studying. They may be second-born sons or daughters from families with a son or two.
Not Good: Kids who are ignored by their rich parents and sent to hagwons where they make all kinds of rude demands of you (angry at adults) yet still bond well with the other kids and can turn them against you if they want. Also, kids who are ignored by their poor, drunken parents. Or kids who are not parented so much as controlled. They get no guidance at home, but chances are they're still beaten/put down when they screw up.
Worst: Kids who are spoiled at every turn and told they are wonderful and better than everyone, and whose parents are more 'us and them' than 'right and wrong'. These kids are barely even human, and their parents are 100% to blame. These are the kids that I would consider refusing to teach.
I'd say most Western kids are in the 'Good' category. Not many are in the 'Best'... definitely not as many as in Korea. Quite a few (too many) are in the 'Worst', and a few of the really problematic students are in the 'Not Good' category. |
Well, from everything I heard from my dad and my grandparents was yes, it DID work and was a major deterrent from acting up in class. BUT, I don't think it would work as effectively today because kids will just bring guns into their school and light up the teacher/principal that dished out the lashes the previous day. |
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