|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
|
 Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:15 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Like I said some did, some didn't it was up to the school/princpal.
I can recall a lot of complaints about having to stay till 5:00 as well.
Some PS jobs even allowed the NET to be in charge of themselves and not be subject to the whims of a co-teacher.
Some even got to choose their own textbooks and teaching material.
Seems like too good to be true? It wasn't that long ago.
2001 - 3 thereabouts. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| sirius black wrote: |
| You've been a member since '03. You know for a fact that some had to desk warm back then no matter what? Again, I wasn't around then but I've from folks who have been around as long as you and longer said it was not the case. One of the reasons the PS jobs were so valuable years ago was that they were getting more than 2 weeks off and were on vacation when school was let off. I wasn't around though so I am debating on the widely held belief that there were no deskwarming and camps several years ago. |
Right. The only reason this has changed is because the bosses want to assert their ownership of you. The work relationship is more important than the work, and nothing says 'I own you' quite like making you sit there for the sake of it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| sirius black wrote: |
We have to define 'years ago' because every person I've spoken to aboiut it said its only occurred in the last few years. I don't exactly when (and hopefully someone can tell us) but as far as I can pin point its been teh last 4 years give or take.
Maybe I missed the post but I'd like to see a post where anyone has said they were deskwarming over 6 years ago or that deskwarming was always the case. Its been said numerous times it was not. |
It wasn't over 6 years ago, but do you realize what has happened since then? EPIK was tiny and GEPIK didn't even exist then. Most public school teachers were employed by the school directly or by the regional schoolboard. There are exponentially more NETs now in schools. Bigger programs means more money, which means more scrutiny. Before we go any further, can we agree on what the terms of your contract are, who your contract is with, and who is providing the funding has everything to do with this conversation? Talking about vindicitive or controlling KTs and VPs is just silly in this context. If they had that kind of power they wouldn't have employed you in the first place. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| some waygug-in wrote: |
I would give them the option
deskwarm vs. unpaid leave.
|
Just a point about the unpaid leave..it may seem irrational they won't give this to you but there could be a very valid reason, the "use it or lose it" attitude in government. In Canada, come the end of March the end of fiscal year, you see gov't departments doing their best to eat up whatever surplus they have so their budget isn't cut the next year. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| silkhighway wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
I would give them the option
deskwarm vs. unpaid leave. |
Just a point about the unpaid leave..it may seem irrational they won't give this to you but there could be a very valid reason, the "use it or lose it" attitude in government. In Canada, come the end of March the end of fiscal year, you see gov't departments doing their best to eat up whatever surplus they have so their budget isn't cut the next year. |
Hence witness the building of an escalator at your local train station in December, when it's not really necessary. Although it sure makes it slightly more comfortable.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BoholDiver
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Shouldn't all public buildings be accessable to disabled? Elevators for wheelchairs and escalators for ajummas who can barely walk.
| jvalmer wrote: |
| silkhighway wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
I would give them the option
deskwarm vs. unpaid leave. |
Just a point about the unpaid leave..it may seem irrational they won't give this to you but there could be a very valid reason, the "use it or lose it" attitude in government. In Canada, come the end of March the end of fiscal year, you see gov't departments doing their best to eat up whatever surplus they have so their budget isn't cut the next year. |
Hence witness the building of an escalator at your local train station in December, when it's not really necessary. Although it sure makes it slightly more comfortable. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BoholDiver wrote: |
| Shouldn't all public buildings be accessable to disabled? Elevators for wheelchairs and escalators for ajummas who can barely walk. |
They had an elevator. The escalator wasn't necessary. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Privateer wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Go talk to some guys digging ditches or working road construction and rant and rave about the horrors of your deskwarming. I'm sure that will go over real well. |
That's not the point and I believe you know it. No one's asking for sympathy; just people don't like having their time wasted. Deskwarming is senseless. |
I disagree. It sounds like people here ARE asking for sympathy. I have none.
Deskwarming is not senseless for the reasons I laid out above. It may be the wrong decision, but it is NOT senseless.
Guess what, this is LIFE. At any job you work, there is job time. There is hurry up and wait. There are stretches of extreme boredom punctuated by moments of sheer adrenaline. That is the way life works.
Saying there should never be deskwarming is like saying there should never be starvation.
Yes, but.... |
Yes, but that's not the same - and, again, you know it - because these stretches of time are not planned in advance. If they shut the factory down for lack of orders, they don't expect all the workers to come in and just stand around on the assembly line. |
I believe those workers are hourly, not salary. To say nothing of the fact that if the factory is getting shut down for lack of orders every employee there would gladly come in and stand around and get paid than be out of the job and free to do what they want at home.
| Quote: |
So instead of answering the question you call a hypotheitical 'pointless'. I gave you an hypothetical. One of the definitions of a hypothetical is: existing only as an idea or concept.
Please no red herrings about 'government funded institutions'. Its irrelevant to what I asked you.
What is unclear about 'full discretion. No law or regulation to bind you' ?
Answer the question. Would you or would you not have deskwarming under the scenario I presented to you? |
Okay, just to clarify, reality has no basis in your argument. So I will answer your hypothetical in that spirit.
Well if I had absolute control and silly things like governments or laws to worry about I would go out and pick money from the money tree (Or just rob it from people at gunpoint) and let the NETs turn their private plane and car into mobile classrooms so that they could still be "at work" while they take a first-class all-expenses paid vacation around the world.
Oh and I wouldn't just be a principal but Commissioner of Major League Baseball, a Hollywood Producer, and President of the United States AND Korea.
Seriously, there is a difference between a hypothetical scenario and a fantasy scenario.
Hypothetical scenarios assume "the laws of reality" exist, the only thing that changes are specific variables (usually who is charge of making the decisions) while keeping the "rules" in existence. These are sometimes useful.
Fantasy scenarios involve waving a magic wand and are totally devoid of reality. These are useless.
If you are going to criticize policy and postulate alternatives, could you at least do it in the context of reality, not fantasy? I think that it is highly inappropriate for people to do critical analysis in that fashion.
| Quote: |
| Right. The only reason this has changed is because the bosses want to assert their ownership of you. The work relationship is more important than the work, and nothing says 'I own you' quite like making you sit there for the sake of it. |
Nothing says I own you like requesting a revised edition of your lesson plan on my desk by 9AM tomorrow. Then following it up with updated PPTs due at 9AM the following day, followed up by....
You have no idea what "owning" someone and assigning punitive duties is.
If I wanted to be spiteful to the foreign teacher I can think of about 50 things I'd make them do all day instead of deskwarm. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jvalmer wrote: |
| BoholDiver wrote: |
| Shouldn't all public buildings be accessable to disabled? Elevators for wheelchairs and escalators for ajummas who can barely walk. |
They had an elevator. The escalator wasn't necessary. |
The elevators at my train station go out of service a lot. Those new escalators are important to the older folks.
When it's warmer, I have to carry my bike up and over the tracks, so the escalator makes it easier than having to take the stairs. My bike is very heavy, because I didn't get the best kind. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Steelrails"]
| Privateer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Right. The only reason this has changed is because the bosses want to assert their ownership of you. The work relationship is more important than the work, and nothing says 'I own you' quite like making you sit there for the sake of it. |
Nothing says I own you like requesting a revised edition of your lesson plan on my desk by 9AM tomorrow. Then following it up with updated PPTs due at 9AM the following day, followed up by....
You have no idea what "owning" someone and assigning punitive duties is.
If I wanted to be spiteful to the foreign teacher I can think of about 50 things I'd make them do all day instead of deskwarm. |
Its not that easy to get a NET to leave their home country (especially Americans where only 1/5 at most have a passport) to come to work for your school in Korea. A recruiter will tell you there is a lot of handholding even in these tough economic times. Its much easier to get someone aready in Korea obviously but a fair number of EPIK, GEPIK and SMOE teachers come from overseas. A school does the punitive stuff you do and they risk never having a NET work there. So, the next best thing is deskwarming. Its commonplace to ask to speak to a NET that worked at that school before. They did that NO ONE would touch that place. So, while they could do worse they can't or rather wouldn't. They would be a recruiters nightmare to fill.
Last edited by sirius black on Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| silkhighway wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
We have to define 'years ago' because every person I've spoken to aboiut it said its only occurred in the last few years. I don't exactly when (and hopefully someone can tell us) but as far as I can pin point its been teh last 4 years give or take.
Maybe I missed the post but I'd like to see a post where anyone has said they were deskwarming over 6 years ago or that deskwarming was always the case. Its been said numerous times it was not. |
It wasn't over 6 years ago, but do you realize what has happened since then? EPIK was tiny and GEPIK didn't even exist then. Most public school teachers were employed by the school directly or by the regional schoolboard. There are exponentially more NETs now in schools. Bigger programs means more money, which means more scrutiny. Before we go any further, can we agree on what the terms of your contract are, who your contract is with, and who is providing the funding has everything to do with this conversation? Talking about vindicitive or controlling KTs and VPs is just silly in this context. If they had that kind of power they wouldn't have employed you in the first place. |
Remeber, we're talking about the same country/people/MOE/etc. that overreacts by our standards if one teacher out of the thousands here does something wrong and makes whole scale changes to rules and document requirements as a result. The same xenophobic country we read posts on every day.
So, while you say it matters who 'we are talking about' the mindset is the same generally speaking.
As far as contracts they have undergone changes. There is some leeway in them generally and to some extent some of it is vague. I and no one else is denying they can't make you deskwarm. The contrcact is written so that they can make you do it.
The point is the pointlessness of it. Some (and you may be of that group) see nothing wrong about it at all and I view it as not only asanine but probably done by some one/people in power as a way as either punishment or controlling of NETs. We can only guess since we are not mind readers but the act itself of deskwarming suggests, at least to me and others, that they know it serves no purpose other than to limit the vacation time of NETs.
A school isn't a factory or a company in terms of its work year. Traditionally, and its not just in the west, teachers are off on vacation when school is NOT in sessoin and finals are over. It was like that before and it isn't now. Unis don't do that deskwarming stuff. In theory they could I suppose. It is not unreasonable to expect to be let go on vacation when school is finished (and come back for camps). I am at a loss how anyone can see that as something unreasonable. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| sirius black wrote: |
Remeber, we're talking about the same country/people/MOE/etc. that overreacts by our standards if one teacher out of the thousands here does something wrong and makes whole scale changes to rules and document requirements as a result. The same xenophobic country we read posts on every day.
So, while you say it matters who 'we are talking about' the mindset is the same generally speaking. |
You're lumping a whole lot of people here into one category. The ajosssi at the corner store who hates foreingners, the media, the MOE, the immigration department, and your co-teachers didn't all sit down in a room together and discuss what to do about the NETs.
I'm not talking about gussing mindsets, I'm talking about understanding that you are on of thousands of NETs employed in a large publicly-funded program, and that program still only makes up a tiny amount of the MOE, probably less than 1%. When talking about why John didn't have to deskwarm back in 1992, we first have to agree that John wasn't employed by the same program that received the same funding that yours does. The people that are accountable for the money, and especially the amounts they're accountable for, are extremely different. Employing 2 Johns costs 80mil, employing 2000 Johns costs 80billion. Who is more likely to be scrutinized, audited, and yes, have a media expose on them wasting public money?
| Quote: |
As far as contracts they have undergone changes. There is some leeway in them generally and to some extent some of it is vague. I and no one else is denying they can't make you deskwarm. The contrcact is written so that they can make you do it.
|
I don't have the contract so I don't know how it's vague, so I can't comment on this.
| Quote: |
The point is the pointlessness of it. Some (and you may be of that group) see nothing wrong about it at all and I view it as not only asanine but probably done by some one/people in power as a way as either punishment or controlling of NETs.
|
I never claimed that deskwarming was an efificient use of time, it's certainly not. But maybe, just maybe, there are bigger things at stake than whether you get paid to fulfill your contract and come to work even though there are no clsses, or you go hang out on a Thai beach at the taxpayers expense. Look at the big picture here rather than your little role in it. GEPIK is cutting back, and teachers are being told there is not enough money in the budget to re-sign them . They are probably fighting for every dollar they can get.
| Quote: |
A school isn't a factory or a company in terms of its work year. Traditionally, and its not just in the west, teachers are off on vacation when school is NOT in sessoin and finals are over. It was like that before and it isn't now. |
Contracted (temporary) teachers both in the West and in Korea don't get paid for summer vacation, In fact, they don't have a job. If there is a position for them at the end of the vacation, which is not always the case, they sign a new contract for the length of the school term.
| Quote: |
| Unis don't do that deskwarming stuff. In theory they could I suppose. It is not unreasonable to expect to be let go on vacation when school is finished (and come back for camps). I am at a loss how anyone can see that as something unreasonable. |
Again, who employs university teachers? Does some program recruit 2000 University teachers and place them in universities across the country? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| silkhighway wrote: |
| Quote: |
The point is the pointlessness of it. Some (and you may be of that group) see nothing wrong about it at all and I view it as not only asanine but probably done by some one/people in power as a way as either punishment or controlling of NETs.
|
I never claimed that deskwarming was an efificient use of time, it's certainly not. But maybe, just maybe, there are bigger things at stake than whether you get paid to fulfill your contract and come to work even though there are no clsses, or you go hang out on a Thai beach at the taxpayers expense. Look at the big picture here rather than your little role in it. GEPIK is cutting back, and teachers are being told there is not enough money in the budget to re-sign them . They are probably fighting for every dollar they can get.
|
This pretty much sums up my take on it as well. Until I read this thread, the "punishment" theory never even entered my mind. I thought it was probably more a case of them covering their butts.
In fact, I had a good Korean friend who really resented when native teachers got non-holiday, non vacation-days off, and she threatened to call the school board to complain about it. (I think I talked her out of it but knowing her she may of done it anyway.) I know American taxpayers who would do the same thing if they felt their tax dollars were being wasted. Think about it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Sector7G wrote: |
| In fact, I had a good Korean friend who really resented when native teachers got non-holiday, non vacation-days off, and she threatened to call the school board to complain about it. (I think I talked her out of it but knowing her she may of done it anyway.) I know American taxpayers who would do the same thing if they felt their tax dollars were being wasted. Think about it. |
This is true.
I can't think of too many countries out there who hire foreign workers, start them off with a decent salary, AND give them nice long fully paid vacations. If you can name one job where unskilled immigrant laborers are given terms similar to ESL teachers, then I'll admit that deskwarming isn't about putting on a show for the people who would otherwise get upset. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
Countries traditionaly have vacation the SAME time as the students and this included Korea until recently. Some of you make it seem like its some crime to do that. Its friggin' normal people! Deskwarming is ABMORMAL to that type of school year. Bottom line. You're being paid year round but work when the students are there. There is nothing strange about that concept but its made out to be that on here.
Doesn't matter who is funding it. EPIK/GEPIK or whomever. If anyone on here is trying to claim that whomever has a say about education in Korea doesn't see the concept of teachers going on vacation the same time as the students as anything but typical, I will call 'bullsh*t'. Universities don't deskwarm. Its not because its non EPIK/GEPIK its because its normal that instructors go on vacation when there are no classes. The powers that be, the powers that made the decision to institute deskwarming KNOW its not typical. I'm not a mindreader but its a supposition that is extremely likely and only the intellectually dishonest would say otherwise.
Its a real head scratcher to me reading posts that support and mind bogglingly defend it.  
Last edited by sirius black on Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
