|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
|
 Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:53 am Post subject: |
 |
|
It's not abnormal in Korea.
Anyway, maybe we should all stop complaining before someone sees it. They might take away deskwarming and replace it with something even worse. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
It's not abnormal in Korea.
Anyway, maybe we should all stop complaining before someone sees it. They might take away deskwarming and replace it with something even worse. |
When I taught in Japan, if a school had a holiday that wasn't also a national holiday, I had to go sit at the local board of education all day and do nothing. Likewise if I had spare days at the end of the school term before my vacation started.
Last edited by silkhighway on Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| sirius black wrote: |
Doesn't matter who is funding it. EPIK/GEPIK or whomever. If anyone on here is trying to claim that whomever has a say about education in Korea doesn't see the concept of teachers going on vacation the same time as the students as anything but typical, I will call 'bullsh*t'.
|
Who's funding the program has *everything* to do with it. You're not a permanent unionized teacher getting paid to sit home and you're also not a short-term contract teacher who is unemployed for the break. You don't play by the same rules as people in those categories because you're not playing the same game as them. If you can't agree on that, then I don't know what more to say and let's agree to disagree. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| sirius black wrote: |
Countries traditionaly have vacation the SAME time as the students and this included Korea until recently.
Its a real head scratcher to me reading posts that support and mind bogglingly defend it.   |
I just think you are trying to compare apples to oranges. For the most part, we are not certified teachers(and those of us who are get paid a little more). We are working here in Korea on a special program. Generally the terms of that program are that we work eleven months and get paid for thirteen(taking into account 4 weeks vacation and one month bonus). That's not a bad deal IMHO. For someone to complain about coming in for a few more stress free desk warming days on top of that is the real head scratcher.
Yes, certified teachers in the US work around 9 months and get paid for twelve. Yes, they get paid better too. But again, apples and oranges.
| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
Anyway, maybe we should all stop complaining before someone sees it. They might take away deskwarming and replace it with something even worse. |
I could see that happening! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| silkhighway wrote: |
Who's funding the program has *everything* to do with it. You're not a permanent unionized teacher getting paid to sit home and you're also not a short-term contract teacher who is unemployed for the break. You don't play by the same rules as people in those categories because you're not playing the same game as them. If you can't agree on that, then I don't know what more to say and let's agree to disagree. |
My point exactly! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Sector7G wrote: |
Yes, certified teachers in the US work around 9 months and get paid for twelve. Yes, they get paid better too. But again, apples and oranges. |
Just one point, it has nothing to do with your certification. It hs to do with the permanence of your position and collective bargaining power. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| silkhighway wrote: |
| Sector7G wrote: |
Yes, certified teachers in the US work around 9 months and get paid for twelve. Yes, they get paid better too. But again, apples and oranges. |
Just one point, it has nothing to do with your certification. It hs to do with the permanence of your position and collective bargaining power. |
Right! When it comes right down to it, it would make just as much sense to complain that we are not getting as good of benefits that the Teamsters are. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wiltern
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| sirius black wrote: |
| Its a real head scratcher to me reading posts that support and mind bogglingly defend it. |
It's a real head scratcher to me why someone who is so adamant against the employment system they signed up for continues to stay here. Don't like it...go home. I have more respect for the runner, than someone with an inflated sense of self (you are NOT a certified teacher) who whines incessantly on Dave's. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
There is room for debate about whether they should give an extra week or three of vacation in the contract, and maybe as budgets get tighter and (if) recruitment numbers go down, the MOE should consider that as a carrot.
But whatever the contract states, they should enforce, and I would be the last person to blame them for that. Allowing principals to give extra paid vacation not only opens doors to claims of favouritism, it also opens doors to corruption. How do they know you're not backhanding your principal a white envelope with a few man wons in exchange for your vacation time? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Non unionized or unionized, EPIK/GEPIK, etc. is a red herring. Some claim it NEVER was normal to deskwarm in Korea initially and its a fairly new concept to the poster who said its normal in Korea. It isn't. They change rules and contracts all the time. Also I see the point of it being normal to be off the same times as the students for vacation is being sited by exceptions durng the school year. The exception proves the rule.
The powers that be know its not the norm and I don't see a post where someone has tried to ride that horse by saying they don't.
Its a widely accepted concept in education globally by any educator that teachers being off the length of time as the students is an earned vacation time. Even if its 3 months as it is in the states even though you are paid annually. Korean educational authorities know this. You're being paid to do nothing regardless of whether you are deskwarming or on a beach in Thailand. So, deskwarming is not being paid to do nothing, its vacation time EARNED traditionally. Being paid to do nothing is being paid not having to teach when students are at school. THAT is being paid to do nothing. Contractually they can get around the widely accepted tradition of teachers being off and that is what deskwarming is. Nothing more than making you be at school even though its widely accepted as a time when teachers are on vacation.
The you're an assistant teacher thingy is a red herring. Even assistant teachers have the same time off in America and other places.
By the way, I'm not a PS teacher so we can throw out the posts that say I'm whining. As far as my posting about a situation I am not party to (and I know that is coming as a red herrring to say that I shouldn't ocmment on it), its irrelevant when we are discussing any subject where the debate is what is the norm and what is logical.
The unionized argument doesn't wash because teachers as far as I know in America and other places were NOT in schoo when the students were on vacation. Teachers unionized for other reasons. NOT because they were made to deskwarm from June to September in America. If the norm is for all workers including teachers to be at work in Korea all the time except their contractual time off unis would be doing the same.
Its my last point on it. The posts aren't meant to change the minds of those who can not (or will not) see the idiocy of deskwarming. Its to point out to the lurkers who will not post how the argument supporting doesn't hold water.
PS: Thanks to those that oppose that kept the debate civil. A rarity on this site. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| The unionized argument doesn't wash because teachers as far as I know in America and other places were NOT in schoo when the students were on vacation. |
100% inaccurate. There are staff-only days. There are planning days. Teachers are there at least a week before and a week after the school year, usually two.
As far as Korean schools, go into a public school, yes most teachers are gone but there are always a few. The groundscrew is still there, the administration staff is still there. Various teachers teach after school programs. Most of the normal teachers work as well, just not all at once. If they aren't working, a lot of them are at employer mandated continuing education.
| Quote: |
| Its a real head scratcher to me reading posts that support and mind bogglingly defend it |
| Quote: |
| Its my last point on it. The posts aren't meant to change the minds of those who can not (or will not) see the idiocy of deskwarming. Its to point out to the lurkers who will not post how the argument supporting doesn't hold water. |
Logic and government run operations don't mix.
The reason we are defending it is A)We understand the reality of the situation and how taxpayer funded operations work. B)We know it could get a lot worse. We could actually have to work during those days. We'll take deskwarming any day over that extra work.
What this is, is the difference between theory and experience. Experience teaches us that if some people get deskwarming and some people get vacations, accusations of favoritism and the like ensue. Experience teaches us that if you switch that time to vacation time for all, pay will be decreased. Experience teaches us how things work in government and the various entities involved in making those things work.
Again, I'm pretty sure that we could deskwarming replaced with vacation. I'm pretty sure our pay would go from 2.0 to 1.8.
No thanks, I'll desk warm. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
No one is saying ESL teachers have a rough deal. That is not the point at issue.
The point is I cannot fathom why a boss would ask an employee to do something of no productive value whatsoever. The only reason I can possibly think of is to cement the idea that you must accept all the boss's decrees without question. It's almost like being asked to accept that 2+2=5; not because it makes sense, but precisely because it doesn't make sense; because acceptance of authority is more important than things making sense.
Oh wait: there are other explanations. Perhaps the people in charge simply feel teachers were getting too good a deal before deskwarming was introduced. Or maybe they want to appease jealous Korean co-workers. Or, perhaps most likely of all, they want to get more work out of NETs but couldn't think of a better way because they're incompetent people who don't think things through and simply don't consider things like the value of people's time.
None of the above are good, valid reasons for deskwarming. If anyone out there knows of a valid reason for it, I'd love to hear it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Privateer wrote: |
No one is saying ESL teachers have a rough deal. That is not the point at issue.
The point is I cannot fathom why a boss would ask an employee to do something of no productive value whatsoever. The only reason I can possibly think of is to cement the idea that you must accept all the boss's decrees without question. It's almost like being asked to accept that 2+2=5; not because it makes sense, but precisely because it doesn't make sense; because acceptance of authority is more important than things making sense.
Oh wait: there are other explanations. Perhaps the people in charge simply feel teachers were getting too good a deal before deskwarming was introduced. Or maybe they want to appease jealous Korean co-workers. Or, perhaps most likely of all, they want to get more work out of NETs but couldn't think of a better way because they're incompetent people who don't think things through and simply don't consider things like the value of people's time.
None of the above are good, valid reasons for deskwarming. If anyone out there knows of a valid reason for it, I'd love to hear it. |
How's this- It's mandated by MOE orders. If they fail to have you work those X number of days their school could get their funding reduced. Or even more, its mandated by law how many days non-Union specialized teachers have to work. Or maybe there have been threats of favoritism lawsuits or some sort of class-action measure by the teacher's unions, or any number of reasons.
| Quote: |
| The point is I cannot fathom why a boss would ask an employee to do something of no productive value whatsoever. |
Because if they don't ask the employee to deskwarm, even worse things will happen.
| Quote: |
| The only reason I can possibly think of is to cement the idea that you must accept all the boss's decrees without question. It's almost like being asked to accept that 2+2=5; not because it makes sense, but precisely because it doesn't make sense; because acceptance of authority is more important than things making sense. |
Good bosses, let their employees have input and a say, but part of being a good boss is that once you have made up your mind, that is the direction things are going to take. It's not a democracy, you are not the boss. Your boss is the boss.
I've had lazy employees underneath me who didn't care much for authority. With some setting a good example met nothing. The only way to teach them a good work ethic was to have them do extra work and to enforce your authority over them. Many would quit, some would stick and become good workers who, once they showed they knew ropes, were given much more leeway.
| Quote: |
| Or, perhaps most likely of all, they want to get more work out of NETs but couldn't think of a better way because they're incompetent people who don't think things through and simply don't consider things like the value of people's time. |
They could certainly think of some ways- Go find and research 100 English Children's Book Titles for our Library and prepare lesson plans for each of them.
They know how. They are just trying to make it as painless for you as possible without getting some sort of call-in from the MOE asking them why your school gives its NET 45 days vacation, and this other one gives its more senior NET 24 days vacation, yet your budgets are the same.
Or how about instead of toner and paper for a year in your English Center, the Science Dept. sees you on vacation for an extended period and uses that to justify a paycut for you to fund the purchase of a new big screen for the science lab.
Picture this, imagine you are the principal and your English teacher is working all but the two weeks vacation and are constantly working with substandard equipment. You see the Science Assistant has gone on vacation, even though his contract says he is supposed to be working those days, but otherwise he'd just be deskwarming. The English teacher brings this to your attention and starts using words like "discrimination" and "regulation" and saying that you should adjust the budget accordingly. You like the Science Teacher, but the English Teacher is right, he's required to be working, so the next best thing you can do is have him deskwarm. You know what he's really doing. You wish he could be off visiting family, but you want to makes sure he keeps a good salary and the budget for the program doesn't get cut.
Now as the English Teacher, wouldn't you demand more money for Toner and Paper and heat, rather than see that money go to someone who is supposed to be working (as per their contract) but is instead vacationing?
And as the principal you have to balance all of these things. Especially when next week the County Office is going to be auditing everything you do and your not comfortable because one of the people running things hates your guts for whatever reason.
You're not going to go to war for 1 English Teacher who will be gone in four months and the difference is whether or not they get two weeks vacation or two weeks deskwarming as per their contract. Especially when earlier in the year they made a stink about the details of their contract and whether or not they had to come in for one Saturday because the school was doing a festival and they wanted them to be there.
Now on the other hand you know a few bureaucratic tricks and you might be able to finagle turning that deskwarming time into vacation time for that NET who always was nice and smiling, teaches you your English word of the day, did some extra favors and work, and left a nice bottle of Remy Martin XO and 4 Cuban Cigars on your desk when he came back from his vacation.
"Hmm all I have to do is authorize this and that and I get a nice bottle and some stogies..."
Play the game. Play the game. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Maybe they could make deskwarming more productive by forcing the worst students in the whole school to make up for their lack of progress over the year by taking classes with us. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
| Maybe they could make deskwarming more productive by forcing the worst students in the whole school to make up for their lack of progress over the year by taking classes with us. |
Now that would be punishing teachers! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
