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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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 Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Poor weeaboos...  |
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happiness
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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great conversation, very interesting.
korea is a very strict society in many ways, esp socially. The way they are taught to relate and share everything, I can totally get how they call the west greedy. But, they mostly cannot grasp many ideas from the west.
Korea is about doing things right, and knowing your place
America (maybe) is about doing new things, and making your place
and because of these things, Korea will have problems with anything that isnt a mirror image of itself, at least until all the old war vets and their kids pass on.
i always use the expression "east is east and west is west, and never the two shall meet" was it Mark Twain? Its very nice to be all Benneton and talk about interracial mixing and crossculture-ism, etc. I feel that all of that is really surface-y. Korea has starbucks and all, but they can only operate how they know how, which is the middle kingdom between two bigger asian giants which has had to fight for what they have forever, and all of that has created the Korean mindset, etc.
Theres money to be made here, and if you can find a lovely lass or lad as well, thats great. But for me, in 10 years, Ive never have. East is east... |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| I felt like an outsider, like "you're not one of us, you don't understand" they never said it though, it just felt that way. but what do I not understand? How am i not a person just like you? Where I'm from, I see a lot more minorities saying "you're not one of us" to white people then I see white people towards minorities. |
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| don't blaim all asians because I jumped into the lions den (I joined Asian Student Association) and they treated me differently (we were making food, but it was my job to wrap the things in tinfoil and not actaully do any cooking, which I'm good at). |
Well, not to say its right, but to perhaps explain things, trying to jump in and "do the cooking" and dominate things is a very "American" way of doing things.
You say you wanted to do the cooking. What if one of the members, someone who had planned the activity and provided the materials, wanted to do the cooking? Why should you be the one to do the cooking? Why is your happiness more important than theirs?
I have to ask, were you invited into the Asian Student Assc. or did u just try and join?
As a former member of an Asian Student Assc. there is a night and day difference between the non-Asian students who got invited and those that tried to join. Those that tried to join inevitably wanted to be the center of attention and did not get along well with everyone. Those that got invited in were already friends with half of the membership and would integrate into the activities so easily as that it was almost second nature.
I would say that one reason those minority groups and clubs are sometimes formed is that the minorities do not a feel a part of the High School "power structure". For example the prom king and queen will typically reflect the ethnic makeup of the school. When you join the Asian student union (or any ethnic student union) and try to go for the head spot and lead things and be the center of attention it reinforces that minority status.
Part of it is paying your dues. Sometimes people of other backgrounds (this applies to all races, dealing with all races) expect to be welcomed and embraced when they interact with a minorities in a minority situation. From white people thinking that they can just go into a black chuch, shout out hallelujah, and be embraced, to that ajosshi that says "Hello, you are so handsum" at the bar and expects you to be his best friend.
I mean Asian Student Union isn't there for your Cross-Cultural Experience. It's not there for you to get to try your hand at Asian cooking. It's not there for everyone to pay attention to you and turn it into your Last Samurai experience. Unfortunately a lot of people tend to do that (of any race, dealing with any race) and turn it into as Paul Mooney would say, "Last Black Man on the Face of the Earth. Starring Tom Hanks."
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| I felt like an outsider, like "you're not one of us, you don't understand" they never said it though, it just felt that way. but what do I not understand? How am i not a person just like you? Where I'm from, I see a lot more minorities saying "you're not one of us" to white people then I see white people towards minorities. |
I'm not "one with the Koreans". That's fine with me. Are they "one of us" in America? In some sense yes, in another sense no. Depends on the degree of assimilation. Sure in the sense of members of the human race or Christendom we're all one and ultimately our human behaviors so us to all be very similar. But when it comes to experiences and customs, maybe not. Everyone is greedy, but the forms it takes across cultures can cause stress if you are not familiar with it.
But frankly speaking, no you're not one of them. The attempt to be the center of it all at the cooking thing highlights that difference in mindset. The fact that you jumped in and weren't "introduced" also shows that mindset. Think of the Korean guy who tries to join your table at the bar, sure sometimes it works, but usually its very awkward. Now think about the Korean guy that everyone has already met and gets invited out to join the group on Friday. World of difference.
I don't think much of white privilege, but I would ask you to consider that things like minority student associations are not your playgrounds for cross-cultural experiences. I would also ask that you bear that in mind before you come to Korea. You're well meaning, but I think you need to understand that this curious people with their smelly foods and different music are not objects for your amusement and they do not exist to expand your cultural horizons.
You're 65% there, you see people as individuals and stick to that, but remember, they are individuals with their own agenda and they aren't there to make you happy.
I can say this, I predict that if you come to Korea you may have a great first 6 months to a year, but in all likelihood you will get very turned off by what you would perceive to be everyone's unwillingness to accept you. I would highly recommend spending more time around Koreans/Asians, not trying to be the center of things, but by watching, listening, and supporting. |
Excellent post! |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| stevieg4ever wrote: |
Its not bashing Korea, its speaking honestly and frankly about one's experiences and observations which the OP is entitled to do especially on account of some of the things he wrote a few pages back about what various Korean people have seen and done in his presence. I will admit that there are ways to go about it and ways to not go about it.
Ive experienced the same things in the UK in my Korean class where i was expected not to talk about all the cr@p that goes on here, that i have seen and experienced but listen to how glorious Korea is.
They are in America are they not, remind of the first amendment there again please??
And by the way, they were at a dinner in the USA, not Korea. They shouldn't be adhering to Korean cultural norms in the US anyways. Jesus... What are we told when we come to Korea: adapt to the culture, follow the culture you're not in the west now... Smacks of double standards and hypocricy from what I can see.
Also did you miss the bit about his wife complaining about Americans all the time? He said it in black and white in his original post. So is the wife allowed to be racist about Americans whilst he has to be silent about.
"Don't like it? THEN DON'T MARRY ONE!" - same applies to his wife! Cuts both ways.
No wonder western countries are being paralyzed by political correctness. And its no wonder why Koreans remain so narrow minded about foreigners when we are not allowed to recall instances which do not reflect welll on Korea simply because of that fact.
| redaxe wrote: |
| stevieg4ever wrote: |
I absolutely hate, loathe and despise suggestions such as these. So is he expected, in front a of a room full of people, to forgo every slight he has endured since he came to Korea, every last double standard, every last bit of racism and indignation and just say window dress everything up so to appease Korean culture?!? BS
So by your logic anytime you are infront of other Koreans don't address Korean culture for what you truly feel it is because said Koreans would lose face viz-a-viz never say anything bad about Korea in front of Koreans because they will get upset. My friend you have just wrote the first premise to the latest chapter of 'Political correctness gone insane'. I have never heard such rubbish in my life. And I expect they are supposed to just go on and happily slam the United States to their heart's content. |
Yes, exactly. Bashing Korea in front of one's own Korean wife at a dinner party will hurt the feelings of and relationship with said Korean wife. It is not an appropriate conversation topic, because it causes the wife to lose face. Not losing face is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING in Korean culture.
To you or to him, it might be a matter of speaking one's mind honestly and not having to censor oneself.
But to his wife it is most certainly about their relationship. By bringing up such a topic, he is making it clear to her that he does not care about hurting her feelings. Maybe he even wants to hurt her feelings, otherwise why would he bring up such a topic? Women tend to think this way (interpreting things personally and emotionally rather than impersonally and logically), and Korean women especially because they have that "Korean pride" that is easily bruised.
Don't like it? THEN DON'T MARRY ONE!
I don't know how long you've been in Korea but I think you should understand at least this much by now. |
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Also, I love this guy and wanna marry him, lol. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| There might be a basis for racism in evolutionary psychology - which, if true, is disturbing - but, since we are social animals, the same theory ought equally to provide a basis for another phenomenon: namely, society. If we agree that it's better to live in a society that values freedom, equality, and justice, then we have to transcend racism. It's just ironic that, at a time when Western society has agreed that racism is socially unacceptable, a sector of the Asian minority are self-excluding themselves from society by denying that the very rules designed to include them even apply to them. If you flout society's conventions, then you don't get invited to dinner parties - and you end up missing out on that promotion too. Not that the bigger problem isn't racial violence or anything, but still... |
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enchoo
Joined: 04 Jul 2004
Location: Heading to a reality show near you
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:28 am Post subject: Racism in the whole world can go in all directions.... |
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Best thing is to not dwell on it and change the subject.
You can write a whole thesis on this subject of why the Korean or American society can be xenophobic. Every group of people has exceptions to the rule or people who don't always want to follow the xenophobic group. Just find these people. Generalizing people or cultures can create personal psychological problems. Just look at human interactions more creatively to find personal and unique solutions to the xenophobic challenges. |
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methdxman
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:38 am Post subject: Re: Racism in the whole world can go in all directions.... |
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| enchoo wrote: |
Best thing is to not dwell on it and change the subject.
You can write a whole thesis on this subject of why the Korean or American society can be xenophobic. Every group of people has exceptions to the rule or people who don't always want to follow the xenophobic group. Just find these people. Generalizing people or cultures can create personal psychological problems. Just look at human interactions more creatively to find personal and unique solutions to the xenophobic challenges. |
How could you suggest that American society could be xenophobic? Heck, if you look at an ethnic map of all the big cities in the U.S. you will find that all races/ethnic groups are evenly distributed geographically-oh, wait! |
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marsavalanche
Joined: 27 Aug 2010
Location: where pretty lies perish
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| Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| redaxe wrote: |
^That's interesting. Probably has a lot to do with the lady's individual personality in addition to how nationalistic she is.
My girlfriend is from mainland China, and we joke about China all the time, and sometimes we actually debate serious topics about China.
She's lived outside of the country for 5-6 years and been exposed to the free press. She realizes that China has a lot of social and economic problems. And she reads a lot of "hot" internet news stories about scandals that happen in China (the sorts of things that are on http://www.chinasmack.com/ ) and tells me jokes about all the sketchy and ridiculous things that people in China do. A lot of it is negative and embarrassing, but she has a sense of humor about it, and she knows that I have a strong liking and fascination for the country, so she doesn't have to get defensive about it.
But on the other hand, she is proud of her country and does not understand why so many Chinese want to escape to the West. She wants us to live in China for at least a few years in the future. And if I complain about the poor quality of things that are "Made in China" she reminds me that my girlfriend is also Made in China. 
And also, when she comes to the U.S. and joins a dinner party with me and my American friends, she is not going to hear me griping about how China is dirty or Chinese people are racist or their food is too greasy or whatever. I don't want to give her any reason to feel ashamed, especially in front of my friends. Besides, I have a much better chance that night, if I talk about her and her country to my friends in a positive light.  |
Honestly, good for you.
It's so rare to see people here that don't understand the concept of keeping certain things in the relationship IN the relationship.
Quite embarrassing being an American seeing another American bash Korea with his friends to have a few laughs expecting his Korean wife to just sit there to take it. |
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