|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
highstreet
Joined: 13 Nov 2010
|
 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:04 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Reise-ohne-Ende wrote: |
For everyone who's in a tizzy about crying wolf and whatnot, please note that nobody is comparing a dumb cartoon to like being stoned to death in the streets. As far as racism goes, this is clearly super mild. But it's also part of the overall culture wherein it's okay to mock and ridicule foreigners for being different, and that's gonna take a lot longer to go away if people don't speak up about it. I'd argue that a lot of people who propagate things like this don't even realize that it's offensive.
If it didn't offend you, cool. Enjoy. I'm not so laid back about it, just like I couldn't be laid back about someone calling a Muslim a terrorist.
As for Pinnochio, are you really sure Koreans get that reference? I find it unlikely that that's the first thing the Korean cartoonist would choose to draw, like, "Oh look, Americans won an American award. I'll compare them to a semi-obscure American folk tale slash generations old Disney movie wherein a wooden puppet's nose grows whenever he tells a lie." Do you really think that's more likely than him repeating the pattern of delineating white people by giving them big noses?
Also, the only way the people at the bottom are obviously Asian is their hair color and cut. The 'squinty eyes' just look like closed eyes to me, same as the white guys. And what it comes down to is that, to racist people, their race is the 'default' race. So anybody who's not markedly different (the people winning the award, in this case) is going to 'default' to Korean/Asian. |
Is Pinocchio really that obscure? It's an old story and all, but the story has been translated in to many languages. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Caffeinated wrote: |
Yet another cartoon featuring the good ol' Western nose  from the Chosun Ilbo where they're so quick to take offense yet so stunningly ignorant when it comes to empathy and just push and shove to get their own - kinda like the subway ajosshi. They're just peeved because Chevrolet won because it had a larger weenie than the Hyundai. |
So in the same post about how Koreans are ignorant when it comes to empathy, you make a small Asian *beep* jab?
Speaking of so quick to take offense, it's a CARICATURE! And caricatures are supposed to exaggerate features. Have some of you never seen a political cartoon in your life? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Reise-ohne-Ende
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| highstreet wrote: |
Is Pinocchio really that obscure? It's an old story and all, but the story has been translated in to many languages. |
I would guess it's more obscure than Pocahontas, and none of my (middle school) students knew who she was or had seen the movie, so I really doubt most Koreans know about Pinocchio.
| madoka wrote: |
| Speaking of so quick to take offense, it's a CARICATURE! And caricatures are supposed to exaggerate features. Have some of you never seen a political cartoon in your life? |
It's not a caricature, though. They're not drawing exaggerated pictures of the owners of GM (or whatever). They're just drawing generic racist depictions of white people.
If I wrote an article about Hyundai and included this picture and said it was just a caricature, what would you think of me?: http://www.who-sucks.com/wp-content/uploads/icons//2007/07/jap1.jpg
Oh and this one's from my article about Obama: http://www.zimbio.com/Hollywood+Street+King/articles/lbIEIXA0SAf/Racism+any+Form+Still+Racism+Jacky+Jasper
Btw, I agree with you about the weenie joke. Although I don't think the commenter was referring so much to the actual size of the people's *beep* as much as perceived inadequacy leading to resentment, comments like that are still not okay. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nathanrutledge
Joined: 01 May 2008
Location: Marakesh
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Pinocchio is definitely not obscure. I'm positive it's not the reference being made by the cartoon, but it's not obscure.
I don't see what the big deal is with the cartoon. EVERY political cartoonist uses stereotypical features to depict people of different races, genders, classes, etc. Look at an individual that is characterized frequently. Obama is frequently drawn with huge ears, big lips, a flat, wide nose. Bush had the big ears, beady eyes, little smirk.
Features are always drawn exaggerated in cartoons like these. Asians always have dark hair and small eyes. Africans have wide flat noses, big lips.
Koreans see westerners in there own stereotypical way, big noses, big smiles, blond hair. So what? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Reise-ohne-Ende
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| nathanrutledge wrote: |
Pinocchio is definitely not obscure. I'm positive it's not the reference being made by the cartoon, but it's not obscure.
I don't see what the big deal is with the cartoon. EVERY political cartoonist uses stereotypical features to depict people of different races, genders, classes, etc. Look at an individual that is characterized frequently. Obama is frequently drawn with huge ears, big lips, a flat, wide nose. Bush had the big ears, beady eyes, little smirk.
Features are always drawn exaggerated in cartoons like these. Asians always have dark hair and small eyes. Africans have wide flat noses, big lips.
Koreans see westerners in there own stereotypical way, big noses, big smiles, blond hair. So what? |
Like I said in my last post (although you didn't have time to read it), they're not drawing caricatures of any actual people. Obama is drawn with huge ears because his ears DO stick out. His nose isn't actually any wider than most white people's noses (I saw an article about this) so cartoonists who exaggerate that are indeed being racist. If they were referring to actual people and exaggerated those people's features, it would be different. The fact that both men are identical is what especially tips it off. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tatertot
Joined: 21 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| hondaicivic wrote: |
| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| I. too, would like to complain in the strongest possible terms; my thumbs are in no way as large, proportionately speaking, as the thumbs depicted in this farrago of insults. This can only be a deliberate attempt to belittle and humiliate those of us who are white and have thumbs. |
What goes around comes around....karma is a b**** isn't it? |
 Did you not understand that Sleepy in Seoul's post was sarcastic? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
orosee
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Location: Hannam-dong, Seoul
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Highlighting racial features in a cartoon may or may not have a racist or racialist intent. I just don't see it here in the example. One might then also argue that the huge round eyes found in Japanese comics are racist. The only problem is that these eyes are featured on Asian characters as well as others. So ist this a sort of self-racism against the typically smaller eyes of Asians?
Compare the highlighting of the nose in the Korean cartoon with a similar but clearly malevolent exaggeration from the Nazi magazine "Der St�rmer"... http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_w5lzIBzzXNc/TBZPrr6z2fI/AAAAAAAAArY/vVlM7AH2yQc/s1600/Bonbons_400.jpg, http://www.dhm.de/lemo/objekte/pict/d2z10205/index.html - anybody would be hard pressed to argue against intentional racism in this picture.
I would much more object against the underhanded racism in writing that insists on classifying people such as Barack Obama or Colin Powell as "black" when all photographic evidence shows that what is actually meant is "off-white". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nathanrutledge
Joined: 01 May 2008
Location: Marakesh
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think we should all stop and take a step back from this.
I was talking with some friends, people from all over the world, and someone made a comment about Tiger Woods - he's good at golf because he's half black, half Thai.
Now, I heard this and just smiled and nodded, thinking "wow, what a narrow minded statement."
Afterward, I was talking with a Korean friend about this. I told her I thought that comment was extremely inappropriate, that a statement is racist even if the implication is GOOD; that the reverse implication is that people who are NOT black/Thai are not good at golf.
She seemed exasperated and said that "So many westerners take offense at things that are not racist." Now, I didn't really want to argue with her, so I just let it go. But it brings up a couple of points.
1) This is a homogeneous society. They never have had any reason to be sensitive to other cultures.
2) Korea has different views on lots of things. What makes our view on racism/discrimination any better or worse than their view? Obviously, reading that statement, you're all going to say "Well, it's wrong to discriminate!" and, from my background and how I was raised, I'd agree with you. But you have to look at it from a Korean perspective.
Finally, a caricature doesn't have to be about a single person. You can (and they are) caricaturizing an entire race. You don't see it in the West, because we are more "sensitive" to that because we have so many different races and ethnicities, but they don't here. Take it with a grain of salt. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Redcap wrote: |
Hardly an offensive cartoon.
If the 2 white guys pictured are car salesmen, then the Pinocchio length noses are rather appropriate. |
Yep.
Save your ire for more serious stuff. There's plenty of it... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| nathanrutledge wrote: |
I
2) Korea has different views on lots of things. What makes our view on racism/discrimination any better or worse than their view? Obviously, reading that statement, you're all going to say "Well, it's wrong to discriminate!" and, from my background and how I was raised, I'd agree with you. But you have to look at it from a Korean perspective. |
I see what you are saying, and I'm not wholly convinced the charactures are intended as being racist, but I really can't stand the wishy-washyness of cultural relativism. There are certain elements of just about every culture on the planet that should be condemned. By looking at something like racism from the perspective of a culture that is, by and large, racist (I'm not, for the record, claiming that Korean culture is intrinsically racist or racist at all. Bear with me so I can make my point on a wider level), you are effectively looking to make excuses for the racism. Racism, and any other abhorrent cultural traits, should be called out, and not be hidden behind "well, it's just their culture". I personally find the acceptance of negative elements of culture stemming from cultural relativism to be just about always far more offensive than the negative elements in themselves. It's nothing but disgusting appeasement and acceptance, (and, in some ways, agreement with) of, frankly, abhorrent views.
I'm now just waiting for someone to write "what gives you the right to judge that element of that culture?".
Last edited by morrisonhotel on Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Reise-ohne-Ende
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| nathanrutledge wrote: |
I think we should all stop and take a step back from this.
I was talking with some friends, people from all over the world, and someone made a comment about Tiger Woods - he's good at golf because he's half black, half Thai.
Now, I heard this and just smiled and nodded, thinking "wow, what a narrow minded statement."
Afterward, I was talking with a Korean friend about this. I told her I thought that comment was extremely inappropriate, that a statement is racist even if the implication is GOOD; that the reverse implication is that people who are NOT black/Thai are not good at golf.
She seemed exasperated and said that "So many westerners take offense at things that are not racist." Now, I didn't really want to argue with her, so I just let it go. But it brings up a couple of points.
1) This is a homogeneous society. They never have had any reason to be sensitive to other cultures.
2) Korea has different views on lots of things. What makes our view on racism/discrimination any better or worse than their view? Obviously, reading that statement, you're all going to say "Well, it's wrong to discriminate!" and, from my background and how I was raised, I'd agree with you. But you have to look at it from a Korean perspective.
Finally, a caricature doesn't have to be about a single person. You can (and they are) caricaturizing an entire race. You don't see it in the West, because we are more "sensitive" to that because we have so many different races and ethnicities, but they don't here. Take it with a grain of salt. |
You know, the thing is, for the majority of Koreans, I would agree that they don't have much context to know better about racist issues. But for people who speak English well enough to write the Chosun Ilbo, which really is quite well-written for having come from nonnative speakers, I can almost guarantee they've been exposed to Western ideas of racism and cultural sensitivity. You'd have to purposefully try NOT to consume media that referred to those things.
Anyway, when you're talking about cultural relativism, I think there's a difference between being aware that no culture is *objectively* better and that different cultures have different values, and accepting that the world is the way it is and there's no point in trying to change it. I try to be as culturally open-minded as I can, but things like racial discrimination are not a part of the society I want to live in and I have every right to fight against it with information and education. Are Korean people obligated to listen to me, take me seriously, or change? Not in the least. But I think there are plenty of people in this society willing to adopt certain facets of Western philosophy and morality - look at all of the evangelical Christians. I don't see the harm in introducing them to American conceptions of racial equality.
In the same light, there are a lot of things I've learned from Korean society that have changed me. One of the biggest things is kind of the innocence and trust that people have here. Until I came here, I never imagined that a store in the city could just leave its products on the sidewalk without people stealing them. Children can walk around alone. In a year of being a foreigner with extremely limited knowledge of the language, I've never been ripped off for more than 500 won. That's more than you can say for Thailand or New York City, that's for sure. I honestly never thought it was possible until I came here, and now I have a new societal ideal that I'll carry with me in the future. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think the fact that everyone focused on the 'racist' depiction of Caucasians and many seemed to ignore the 'racist' depiction of Asians is indicative of racism as much as anything in that cartoon.
"Oh yeah there were Asians in that cartoon as well....Oh my, they certainly don't seem to have been drawn too flatteringly as well....didn't notice that" NET narcissism at its finest.
If Asians were drawn that way in a US cartoon we might call it racist. Certainly it would be a little sketch.
As it stands now, I have no problem with the cartoon. It's equal opportunity racism. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hondaicivic
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Daegu, South Korea
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
I think the fact that everyone focused on the 'racist' depiction of Caucasians and many seemed to ignore the 'racist' depiction of Asians is indicative of racism as much as anything in that cartoon.
"Oh yeah there were Asians in that cartoon as well....Oh my, they certainly don't seem to have been drawn too flatteringly as well....didn't notice that" NET narcissism at its finest.
If Asians were drawn that way in a US cartoon we might call it racist. Certainly it would be a little sketch.
As it stands now, I have no problem with the cartoon. It's equal opportunity racism. |
+1.......... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
West Coast Tatterdemalion
Joined: 31 Aug 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The angle of the nose makes me think that there is something on the subconscious level here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Reise-ohne-Ende
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
I think the fact that everyone focused on the 'racist' depiction of Caucasians and many seemed to ignore the 'racist' depiction of Asians is indicative of racism as much as anything in that cartoon.
"Oh yeah there were Asians in that cartoon as well....Oh my, they certainly don't seem to have been drawn too flatteringly as well....didn't notice that" NET narcissism at its finest.
If Asians were drawn that way in a US cartoon we might call it racist. Certainly it would be a little sketch.
As it stands now, I have no problem with the cartoon. It's equal opportunity racism. |
O_o What is racist about the other people in the cartoon? People keep making this claim. Their eyes are the same as the white people's. Their hair (those of them who have it) is black. And it's in a Korean newspaper. That's the only way to infer that they're Asian. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
