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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:01 am Post subject: The Model Minority Myth |
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This talks about Asians in America, from . . .
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. . . places such as Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea, the Philippines and India ... countries which were producing a surplus of college-educated adults but lacked a sufficiently developed domestic economy to adequately absorb them. The 1965 Immigration Act, in trying to bolster America's own domestic needs, inadvertently helped absorb that surplus.
Not only did this massive wave of post-1965 immigrants change the demographic composition of Asian America, it also influenced the American perception that Asians were somehow naturally gifted in math and science because there was a disproportionate number of immigrants coming from Asia with those skills. What was lost was the knowledge of the specific social/legislative/political forces that gave science-minded immigrants a fast lane to a green card. If, instead, the U.S. had built in preference categories for dancers and sculptors, I'd wager the long-standing American stereotype of Asians might be that we're all good on our feet and with our hands. |
This all comes about from Amy Chua's horrible screed pimping her terrible book about the superiority of Asian mothers. |
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Kepler
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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According to Malcolm Gladwell's book, Outliers: The Story of Success, it isn't a matter of Asians being more naturally gifted. Education works better in Asia simply because it involves more time in school:
"Suddenly the causes of Asian math superiority become even more obvious. Students in Asian schools don't have long summer vacations. Cultures that believe the route to success lies in rising before dawn 360 days a year are scarcely going to give their children three straight months off in the summer. The school year in the United States is, on average, 180 days long. The South Korean school year is 220 days long. The Japanese school year is 243 days long."
http://books.google.com/books?id=3NSImqqnxnkC&pg=PT143&lpg=PT143&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false |
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methdxman
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:22 am Post subject: Re: The Model Minority Myth |
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| Kuros wrote: |
This talks about Asians in America, from . . .
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. . . places such as Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea, the Philippines and India ... countries which were producing a surplus of college-educated adults but lacked a sufficiently developed domestic economy to adequately absorb them. The 1965 Immigration Act, in trying to bolster America's own domestic needs, inadvertently helped absorb that surplus.
Not only did this massive wave of post-1965 immigrants change the demographic composition of Asian America, it also influenced the American perception that Asians were somehow naturally gifted in math and science because there was a disproportionate number of immigrants coming from Asia with those skills. What was lost was the knowledge of the specific social/legislative/political forces that gave science-minded immigrants a fast lane to a green card. If, instead, the U.S. had built in preference categories for dancers and sculptors, I'd wager the long-standing American stereotype of Asians might be that we're all good on our feet and with our hands. |
This all comes about from Amy Chua's horrible screed pimping her terrible book about the superiority of Asian mothers. |
Parenting is terrible in the U.S. Just look at the number of social problems we have in America. Fairly high crime, violent crimes, high percentage of child sexual abuse, unwanted children, etc. etc. We have huge social issues in the U.S. Don't think for a second that this kind of stuff just "happens". Good parents who spend time with their kids, love, nurture them in balanced/healthy environments produce outstanding citizens. This isn't the case in the U.S.
I don't think Chinese/Asian mothers are better but it is a style that usually produces good citizens in society. Eh, I have plenty of problems with Asian style parenting. It usually produces an "average" that's higher than other western countries in terms of schooling and being a person who falls in line. But I think western countries produce more outstanding performers in most walks of life. You also tend to get more innovators/game-changers such as Steve Jobs, etc.
Most Asian-Americans lack confidence in the corporate world and end up hitting a glass ceiling. Some of it has to do with White America, but a lot of it has to do with their upbringing.
On the flipside, America produces too many unintelligent people who think that they deserve a voice/opinion. Dumb people do not deserve a voice or opinion, I'm sorry. Dumb people in other countries know that they're dumb and stfu.
On the flipside, smart people tend to be rich and these rich people tend to want to stay rich longer so dumb people in other countries tend not to mobilize so income disparity becomes bigger and we have more social problems.
Americans also tend to lack a sense of pragmatism sometimes. You're always told as a kid that don't ever let anyone tell you you can't do something. Which is great because we have many great stories of people who overcome all obstacles to succeed, etc. But then you have kids that have stupid goals like, "I'm going to become a rapper." And you say, "hey let me hear you rap" and they've got nothing. They haven't even tried it. What?
Anyways going back to the topic at hand... the model minority theory is not a myth in the U.S. Asians have the highest median income out of any ethnic group. Asian Americans are UNDER represented in the prison population (i.e, lower than the % they make up in the regular population). If you look at the UC school system in California Asian-Americans are ridiculously over-represented.
Asian Americans tend to be smart, educated, upstanding citizens. But, again, the real game changers in America tend to be well-to-do White Americans who grow up in more "balanced" environments and are nurtured with a "you can do anything" spirit, which tends to prepare them better for the realities of adult life. |
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hondaicivic
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Daegu, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:15 am Post subject: Re: The Model Minority Myth |
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| methdxman wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
This talks about Asians in America, from . . .
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. . . places such as Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea, the Philippines and India ... countries which were producing a surplus of college-educated adults but lacked a sufficiently developed domestic economy to adequately absorb them. The 1965 Immigration Act, in trying to bolster America's own domestic needs, inadvertently helped absorb that surplus.
Not only did this massive wave of post-1965 immigrants change the demographic composition of Asian America, it also influenced the American perception that Asians were somehow naturally gifted in math and science because there was a disproportionate number of immigrants coming from Asia with those skills. What was lost was the knowledge of the specific social/legislative/political forces that gave science-minded immigrants a fast lane to a green card. If, instead, the U.S. had built in preference categories for dancers and sculptors, I'd wager the long-standing American stereotype of Asians might be that we're all good on our feet and with our hands. |
This all comes about from Amy Chua's horrible screed pimping her terrible book about the superiority of Asian mothers. |
Parenting is terrible in the U.S. Just look at the number of social problems we have in America. Fairly high crime, violent crimes, high percentage of child sexual abuse, unwanted children, etc. etc. We have huge social issues in the U.S. Don't think for a second that this kind of stuff just "happens". Good parents who spend time with their kids, love, nurture them in balanced/healthy environments produce outstanding citizens. This isn't the case in the U.S.
I don't think Chinese/Asian mothers are better but it is a style that usually produces good citizens in society. Eh, I have plenty of problems with Asian style parenting. It usually produces an "average" that's higher than other western countries in terms of schooling and being a person who falls in line. But I think western countries produce more outstanding performers in most walks of life. You also tend to get more innovators/game-changers such as Steve Jobs, etc.
Most Asian-Americans lack confidence in the corporate world and end up hitting a glass ceiling. Some of it has to do with White America, but a lot of it has to do with their upbringing.
On the flipside, America produces too many unintelligent people who think that they deserve a voice/opinion. Dumb people do not deserve a voice or opinion, I'm sorry. Dumb people in other countries know that they're dumb and stfu.
On the flipside, smart people tend to be rich and these rich people tend to want to stay rich longer so dumb people in other countries tend not to mobilize so income disparity becomes bigger and we have more social problems.
Americans also tend to lack a sense of pragmatism sometimes. You're always told as a kid that don't ever let anyone tell you you can't do something. Which is great because we have many great stories of people who overcome all obstacles to succeed, etc. But then you have kids that have stupid goals like, "I'm going to become a rapper." And you say, "hey let me hear you rap" and they've got nothing. They haven't even tried it. What?
Anyways going back to the topic at hand... the model minority theory is not a myth in the U.S. Asians have the highest median income out of any ethnic group. Asian Americans are UNDER represented in the prison population (i.e, lower than the % they make up in the regular population). If you look at the UC school system in California Asian-Americans are ridiculously over-represented.
Asian Americans tend to be smart, educated, upstanding citizens. But, again, the real game changers in America tend to be well-to-do White Americans who grow up in more "balanced" environments and are nurtured with a "you can do anything" spirit, which tends to prepare them better for the realities of adult life. |
"Study has indicated that most non-Asian Americans do not generally differentiate between Asian Americans and Chinese Americans. Stereotypes of both groups are nearly identical. A 2002 survey of Americans' attitudes toward Asian Americans and Chinese Americans indicated that 24% of the respondents disapprove of intermarriage with an Asian American, second only to African Americans; 23% would be uncomfortable supporting an Asian-American presidential candidate, compared to 15% for an African American, 14% for a woman and 11% for a Jew; 17% would be upset if a substantial number of Asian Americans moved into their neighborhood; 25% had somewhat or very negative attitude toward Chinese Americans in general. The study did find several positive perceptions of Chinese Americans: strong family values (91%); honesty as business people (77%); high value on education (67%).
"There is a widespread perception that Asian Americans are not "American" but are instead "perpetual foreigners". Asian Americans often report being asked the question, "Where are you really from?" by other Americans, regardless of how long they or their ancestors have lived in United States. Many Asian Americans are themselves not immigrants but rather born in the United States. Many are asked if they are Chinese or Japanese, an assumption based on major groups of past immigrants."
^http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Americans#Cultural_issues |
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Space Bar
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:19 am Post subject: Re: The Model Minority Myth |
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| methdxman wrote: |
| Parenting is terrible in the U.S. Just look at the number of social problems we have in America. Fairly high crime, violent crimes, high percentage of child sexual abuse, unwanted children, etc. etc. |
Got any data to back this up (especially the part in bold), or do you just watch a lot of TV?
| Wikipedia wrote: |
| Study has indicated that most non-Asian Americans do not generally differentiate between Asian Americans and Chinese Americans. |
In all of Wikipedia, is there no world map? China is in Asia. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| The differnce between Asian Americans and Asians in general is that the Asians in America at some point had the means and drive/opportunity to leave Asia and come to America. These types of people would either be already well off or driven and motivated to do better. That they are doing better than other groups is not really a surprise. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:08 am Post subject: Re: The Model Minority Myth |
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| methdxman wrote: |
| On the flipside, America produces too many unintelligent people who think that they deserve a voice/opinion. Dumb people do not deserve a voice or opinion, I'm sorry. Dumb people in other countries know that they're dumb and stfu. |
Ok, this is just blatantly wrong. come on man, that's just dumb (ha!). If this was true, how has populism flourished in many parts of the world?? Dumb people don't speak up in India? In lots of Latin America? You must be kidding me.
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| On the flipside, smart people tend to be rich and these rich people tend to want to stay rich longer so dumb people in other countries tend not to mobilize so income disparity becomes bigger and we have more social problems. |
Have you ever thought of becoming a socialogist or political scientist? That was some brilliant analysis there. Once again, extremely simplified.
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| Americans also tend to lack a sense of pragmatism sometimes. You're always told as a kid that don't ever let anyone tell you you can't do something. Which is great because we have many great stories of people who overcome all obstacles to succeed, etc. But then you have kids that have stupid goals like, "I'm going to become a rapper." And you say, "hey let me hear you rap" and they've got nothing. They haven't even tried it. What? |
True, but is that really uniquely American? Is that not just a human trait?
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Anyways going back to the topic at hand... the model minority theory is not a myth in the U.S. Asians have the highest median income out of any ethnic group. Asian Americans are UNDER represented in the prison population (i.e, lower than the % they make up in the regular population). If you look at the UC school system in California Asian-Americans are ridiculously over-represented.
Asian Americans tend to be smart, educated, upstanding citizens. But, again, the real game changers in America tend to be well-to-do White Americans who grow up in more "balanced" environments and are nurtured with a "you can do anything" spirit, which tends to prepare them better for the realities of adult life. |
But as the OP noted, there is a reason for that. Obviously you failed to grasp the meaning of the article: they are the model minority due to the types of Asians that came here, not because Asians have some great culture or genetic trait. (Yes, I know, there are many different cultures in Asia) |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:15 am Post subject: Re: The Model Minority Myth |
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| Kuros wrote: |
This all comes about from Amy Chua's horrible screed pimping her terrible book about the superiority of Asian mothers. |
First, let me start with the obligatory white curmudgeon moaning.
Would the WSJ run an article called Why European Mothers Are Superior?
Ok. I agree with Derb:
http://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/RadioDerb/2011-01-14.html
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...
Prof. Chua shared her parenting secrets with us. Quote: "Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do: attend a sleepover, have a playdate, be in a school play, complain about not being in a school play, watch TV or play computer games, choose their own extracurricular activities, get any grade less than an A, not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama, play any instrument other than the piano or violin, not play the piano or violin."
Being one of Prof. Chua's children is, in other words, something like going through Marine Corps boot camp, without the rest breaks. The kids are harassed and bullied to do the best they can do. Any frivolous activities are banned, and the word "frivolous" encompasses wellnigh anything non-academic, including most forms of peer group socialization.
In the Chua case it's worked. Her two daughters are doing very well. One has played piano at Carnegie Hall. This is not altogether surprising. Both intelligence and personality features like conscientiousness are largely heritable, so with two Ivy League professors as parents, the kids had a genetic head start.
If you have a small number � maximum two, I should think � of smart kids, this is a great way to get them bringing home good school reports. I don't know that you can say any more than that about it, though. Most people are not very academically inclined. If a kid's natural bent is towards some other kind of excellence � social, mechanical, athletic, creative � you're just misdirecting them. And why this prejudice against all musical instruments but piano and violin? I used to be friends with a bassoonist. He boasted that he could get a job any time, anywhere in the world, as orchestras are always short of bassoonists.
Furthermore, as Robert Weissberg notes in his excellent book Bad Students, Not Bad Schools, the U.S.A. has not historically been a nation in which academic excellence is the supreme measure of worth. Weissberg quotes the president of an American college boasting that his institution will have an academic program the football team can be proud of. We are not a nation of arrogant credentialed Mandarins tax-farming a cowed peasantry. We are a commercial republic of free citizens under impartial laws: a nation of tinkerers and inventors, of entrepreneurs and prospectors, pioneers and adventurers, barn-raisers and Welcome Wagons, preachers and politicians. Our kids should be raised appropriately, with some freedom to seek out and build upon their own enthusiasms, which will not often include Advanced Placement Algebra or classical piano technique.
Sign your kid up for the school play; and if he shows signs of musical aptitude, get him a bassoon. |
Chua's kids will not end up drug addicts. They'll do well. They may not have what I would consider to be a balanced life. My parents were extremely focused on academics with me but also on sports. They figured I'd be a better student if I blew off steam at hockey practice. I think they were right. Looking back, the friends I made and socialization received from sports and other activities were at least as important as academics in ensuring that I'd have a relatively successful life.
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| Not only did this massive wave of post-1965 immigrants change the demographic composition of Asian America, it also influenced the American perception that Asians were somehow naturally gifted in math and science because there was a disproportionate number of immigrants coming from Asia with those skills. What was lost was the knowledge of the specific social/legislative/political forces that gave science-minded immigrants a fast lane to a green card. If, instead, the U.S. had built in preference categories for dancers and sculptors, I'd wager the long-standing American stereotype of Asians might be that we're all good on our feet and with our hands. |
I'm sure this is part of the story. Immigrants self-select. The individual who crosses an ocean to set up a new life is probably not a layabout.
However, I firmly believe in group differences in cognitive ability. I have completed multivariate statistics and calculus classes both in Singapore and the United States and the difference in what the students were able to accomplish (and with what effort) is remarkable.
In the United States and Canada (East) Asians out perform every other group (except maybe Ashkenazi Jews). I believe East Asian women have a higher median income than white men. There is something else going on here.
The Western mind will probably refuse the group differences explanation. The Chinese are less bothered:
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/post.aspx?bid=354&bpid=26101 |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:10 am Post subject: |
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There's so much to hate about Amy Chua's oeuvre. I am really going to need some help.
Chua is second generation. I wonder if she even speaks a dialect spoken in China. Furthermore, she is a Yale Law Professor selling a book about . . . cultural issues? Something doesn't add up.
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And then you see it: Amy Chua isn't a Chinese mother, she's an American mother. She had a Chinese mother, but now she's a first generation American, which means she has more in common with Natalie Portman than she does with any recent Chinese immigrant. As an American, she was raised by the same forces: MTV, Reagan, Clinton, John Hughes movies. She may have reacted differently to those, but they were her experiences.
And what do Americans do? They brand themselves. I have no idea if Amy Chua cares about Viking stoves or Lexus automobiles but clearly her brand is SuperSinoMom and her bling are her kids. When Jay-Z wants to front he makes a video, and when Amy Chua represents she writes a WSJ article. Because that's her demo, you feel me?
Which means this self-serving piece has nothing to do with "how Chinese mothers are superior" but is really a summary of her episode of MTV Cribs. "Welcome to my home, yo, let me show you my gold toilet. It's for peeing and flushing the coke down when the heat comes in the back way." |
And what she's doing is pimping the Ivy Leagues. And true, I guess that's very Asian. And pushing your child to join the educated scholar class, which was the only meritocratic route to power in China since the T'ang Dynasty, is quintessential Chinese. But we don't live in examination-driven China.
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I am saying that what Chua is advocating is ultimately pointless because it is for a meaningless endeavor. The piano isn't for itself, it's for the "right" college, and for 99% of America the precise college you went to is as irrelevant as the beer you used to lose your virginity. Was it Bud Light or Stella Artois? Same bank account.
And is that average class at an Ivy really better than the average class at a state school? I've taught at both: no. NB that in my example both the state students and the Ivy students had the same teacher-- me. I know there are differences between schools, I'm not naive, but most of those are social/political/sexual and not educational. An Ivy is "better" because its brand is better, like a car. No I don't mean "hey, they all get you there" I mean that the engine of a Toyota and a Lexus is the same, the difference is the leather seats. You want to pay for brand, go ahead; but the people in the know aren't fooled by your fancy car and windshield sticker and the people who aren't in the know can only praise or envy you, but they're in no position to help you attain your goals.
Don't think I've forgotten how important college is to a high school kid. I remember that despite terrible grades I was, inexplicably, put on the wait list to the University of Chicago. And all I could think was, "I'm going to be Phaedrus!" I didn't give a damn about the education, I was hoping/believing that that college was going to define me, make me into someone I was not. I should have been drafted into an infantry battalion just for that. |
Mises, you know her ex-husband was Jewish, right?
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She can't resist getting in a few jabs at her husband. I cringe when I hear a spouse criticising another spouse in public. Lesson 1: you should never, ever, ever, demean your spouse in front of a commoner, and that's a much more powerful lesson to teach your kids than a decade and a half of Minuet in G. |
But I am surprised and impressed by Derb's knowledge of China.
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In Imperial China the order of the social classes was 仕農工商 At the top of the hierarchy was the 仕, the scholar-bureaucrat who'd passed all the imperial examinations. Next was the 農 (农), the farmer. Then came the 工, the craftsman. Down at the bottom of the heap was the despised 商, the merchant. Americans have never thought of themselves like that; and on a survey of Chinese history, or for that matter of modern China, I think this is something we should be thankful for. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Derb lived in a small Chinese village in the early 80's, is married to a Chinese lady and speaks Mandarin.
The reference to Cribs is appropriate. She was showing off. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:46 am Post subject: Re: The Model Minority Myth |
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Screw the ethical issues. I bet the study will be hopelessly inconclusive.
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| When variations of brain-related genomes are found to be significantly more frequent in smart children than average ones, these variations will be associated with intelligence. Researchers will use these variations to identify the genetic differences that determine IQ. |
Good luck with that! |
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methdxman
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: The Model Minority Myth |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| methdxman wrote: |
| On the flipside, America produces too many unintelligent people who think that they deserve a voice/opinion. Dumb people do not deserve a voice or opinion, I'm sorry. Dumb people in other countries know that they're dumb and stfu. |
Ok, this is just blatantly wrong. come on man, that's just dumb (ha!). If this was true, how has populism flourished in many parts of the world?? Dumb people don't speak up in India? In lots of Latin America? You must be kidding me.
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| On the flipside, smart people tend to be rich and these rich people tend to want to stay rich longer so dumb people in other countries tend not to mobilize so income disparity becomes bigger and we have more social problems. |
Have you ever thought of becoming a socialogist or political scientist? That was some brilliant analysis there. Once again, extremely simplified.
| Quote: |
| Americans also tend to lack a sense of pragmatism sometimes. You're always told as a kid that don't ever let anyone tell you you can't do something. Which is great because we have many great stories of people who overcome all obstacles to succeed, etc. But then you have kids that have stupid goals like, "I'm going to become a rapper." And you say, "hey let me hear you rap" and they've got nothing. They haven't even tried it. What? |
True, but is that really uniquely American? Is that not just a human trait?
| Quote: |
Anyways going back to the topic at hand... the model minority theory is not a myth in the U.S. Asians have the highest median income out of any ethnic group. Asian Americans are UNDER represented in the prison population (i.e, lower than the % they make up in the regular population). If you look at the UC school system in California Asian-Americans are ridiculously over-represented.
Asian Americans tend to be smart, educated, upstanding citizens. But, again, the real game changers in America tend to be well-to-do White Americans who grow up in more "balanced" environments and are nurtured with a "you can do anything" spirit, which tends to prepare them better for the realities of adult life. |
But as the OP noted, there is a reason for that. Obviously you failed to grasp the meaning of the article: they are the model minority due to the types of Asians that came here, not because Asians have some great culture or genetic trait. (Yes, I know, there are many different cultures in Asia) |
Ok, this is the reason why I have to be mean on this forum.
1) Re: dumb people, I only say these things to get a rise out of people.
2) I used to work for a development bank. Populism hasn't flourished in Latin America, first of all. You are probably referring to Morales, Chavez and Lula. But who has all the wealth and power in those countries? A few very rich, white people. It's going to take generations and generations to even make a dent in this problem.
Dumb people don't speak up in Latin America. They get manipulated by smart people.
Don't talk about stuff you have absolutely no clue about. India? Latin America, are you f'ing kidding me?
3) About American kids: Yes, it's pretty unique to American children. They lack pragmatism about career goals. You'll be hard pressed to find anywhere else kids talking about becoming astronauts without ever knowing what kind of hard-work and determination you need to become one. There has probably only been a few hundred people that have ever flown into space.
4) Asian Americans and Asians in general stress education a lot more than Americans. Everyone knows this. I'm not saying that Asians/Asian-Americans are better parents, but the average Asian/Asian-American stresses certain things in their child's development that tends to create kids who do well in school and don't fall by the wayside in society.
It's not about the type of Asian Americans that went to the U.S. Education being a priority has been ingrained in all Asian cultures.
Again, places like Korea, Japan, Taiwan, China, etc. tend to produce good citizens who are well educated, which usually ends up creating a balanced/good society.
But the west (mostly the U.S.) tends to generate more of the extremes. |
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travel zen
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Again, places like Korea, Japan, Taiwan, China, etc. tend to produce good citizens who are well educated, which usually ends up creating a balanced/good society.
But the west (mostly the U.S.) tends to generate more of the extremes. |
BS.
These societies are good now ? Balanced?
China had major upheavals last century. Japan was a warrior-macho society that had to be beaten down....
I don't like it when peoples start talking about SUPERIORITY. It leads to war and death. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: The Model Minority Myth |
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| methdxman wrote: |
2) I used to work for a development bank. Populism hasn't flourished in Latin America, first of all. You are probably referring to Morales, Chavez and Lula. But who has all the wealth and power in those countries? A few very rich, white people. It's going to take generations and generations to even make a dent in this problem. |
Populism HAS flourished in those places. Do you even know what populism is?? Apparently not.
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| Dumb people don't speak up in Latin America. They get manipulated by smart people. |
You realize those two aren't a contradiction right? They can speak up and be manipulated at the same time. That's why populism works!
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| Don't talk about stuff you have absolutely no clue about. India? Latin America, are you f'ing kidding me? |
You said nothing to contradict my argument. They speak up by voting for people that are really against their interests. That's why they're dumb. It happens in America, just in a different way of course. Instead of voting for leftist populists, they vote for people like Sarah Palin and Dubya.
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| 3) About American kids: Yes, it's pretty unique to American children. They lack pragmatism about career goals. You'll be hard pressed to find anywhere else kids talking about becoming astronauts without ever knowing what kind of hard-work and determination you need to become one. There has probably only been a few hundred people that have ever flown into space. |
You might have worked at a development bank, but you obviously didn't travel much. People everywhere are like this. Maybe not in regards to astronauts (since few countries have space programs) but many dream to be sports stars, singers, etc without having a clue on how they will accomplish those "goals". |
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methdxman
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: The Model Minority Myth |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| methdxman wrote: |
2) I used to work for a development bank. Populism hasn't flourished in Latin America, first of all. You are probably referring to Morales, Chavez and Lula. But who has all the wealth and power in those countries? A few very rich, white people. It's going to take generations and generations to even make a dent in this problem. |
Populism HAS flourished in those places. Do you even know what populism is?? Apparently not.
| Quote: |
| Dumb people don't speak up in Latin America. They get manipulated by smart people. |
You realize those two aren't a contradiction right? They can speak up and be manipulated at the same time. That's why populism works!
| Quote: |
| Don't talk about stuff you have absolutely no clue about. India? Latin America, are you f'ing kidding me? |
You said nothing to contradict my argument. They speak up by voting for people that are really against their interests. That's why they're dumb. It happens in America, just in a different way of course. Instead of voting for leftist populists, they vote for people like Sarah Palin and Dubya.
| Quote: |
| 3) About American kids: Yes, it's pretty unique to American children. They lack pragmatism about career goals. You'll be hard pressed to find anywhere else kids talking about becoming astronauts without ever knowing what kind of hard-work and determination you need to become one. There has probably only been a few hundred people that have ever flown into space. |
You might have worked at a development bank, but you obviously didn't travel much. People everywhere are like this. Maybe not in regards to astronauts (since few countries have space programs) but many dream to be sports stars, singers, etc without having a clue on how they will accomplish those "goals". |
1) Those two things aren't a contradiction (speaking up and getting manipulated), but in the end it's the same thing. You don't really have a voice unless your best interests don't get served.
In any case, in the US there are about 5000 Sarah Palins for every one in Latin America.
2) I would venture that I have lived a larger portion of my life outside of my home country than you have, speak more languages than you do and have studied and worked in more countries than you have. So your statement that I "obviously" didn't travel much is probably incorrect.
You won't find a 16 year old with bad grades in Europe talking about how he's going to become a millionaire. Just doesn't happen. You see plenty of dumbass, no-hope kids in the US with delusions of grandeur. 0.0001% of these kids go on to become market makers and game changers in this world and the rest serve you hamburgers when you go back home.
Why do you deny that the "American Dream" has been sold to the American public for generations upon generations? That's how it is. People are hopelessly optimistic about their own lives and sometimes to a fault.
Finally, why do so many people here talk about "traveling"? As I said in another thread, traveling just means you have time and money. It doesn't say anything about your level of cultural adaptability or awareness.
Plenty of dumbasses travel a lot. Just because (not specifically you) you came to Korea (barely learning Korean), and traveled around Asia doesn't mean you learned a thing about other cultures.
Show me a guy who has lived in another country and has comfortably integrated himself into that country's society and I'll show you a guy who's a cultural expert. Everyone else just went on a long ass vacation. |
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