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methdxman
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
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 Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: The Model Minority Myth |
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| Leon wrote: |
| methdxman wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| methdxman wrote: |
| On the flipside, America produces too many unintelligent people who think that they deserve a voice/opinion. Dumb people do not deserve a voice or opinion, I'm sorry. Dumb people in other countries know that they're dumb and stfu. |
Ok, this is just blatantly wrong. come on man, that's just dumb (ha!). If this was true, how has populism flourished in many parts of the world?? Dumb people don't speak up in India? In lots of Latin America? You must be kidding me.
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| On the flipside, smart people tend to be rich and these rich people tend to want to stay rich longer so dumb people in other countries tend not to mobilize so income disparity becomes bigger and we have more social problems. |
Have you ever thought of becoming a socialogist or political scientist? That was some brilliant analysis there. Once again, extremely simplified.
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| Americans also tend to lack a sense of pragmatism sometimes. You're always told as a kid that don't ever let anyone tell you you can't do something. Which is great because we have many great stories of people who overcome all obstacles to succeed, etc. But then you have kids that have stupid goals like, "I'm going to become a rapper." And you say, "hey let me hear you rap" and they've got nothing. They haven't even tried it. What? |
True, but is that really uniquely American? Is that not just a human trait?
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Anyways going back to the topic at hand... the model minority theory is not a myth in the U.S. Asians have the highest median income out of any ethnic group. Asian Americans are UNDER represented in the prison population (i.e, lower than the % they make up in the regular population). If you look at the UC school system in California Asian-Americans are ridiculously over-represented.
Asian Americans tend to be smart, educated, upstanding citizens. But, again, the real game changers in America tend to be well-to-do White Americans who grow up in more "balanced" environments and are nurtured with a "you can do anything" spirit, which tends to prepare them better for the realities of adult life. |
But as the OP noted, there is a reason for that. Obviously you failed to grasp the meaning of the article: they are the model minority due to the types of Asians that came here, not because Asians have some great culture or genetic trait. (Yes, I know, there are many different cultures in Asia) |
Ok, this is the reason why I have to be mean on this forum.
1) Re: dumb people, I only say these things to get a rise out of people.
2) I used to work for a development bank. Populism hasn't flourished in Latin America, first of all. You are probably referring to Morales, Chavez and Lula. But who has all the wealth and power in those countries? A few very rich, white people. It's going to take generations and generations to even make a dent in this problem.
Dumb people don't speak up in Latin America. They get manipulated by smart people.
Don't talk about stuff you have absolutely no clue about. India? Latin America, are you f'ing kidding me?
3) About American kids: Yes, it's pretty unique to American children. They lack pragmatism about career goals. You'll be hard pressed to find anywhere else kids talking about becoming astronauts without ever knowing what kind of hard-work and determination you need to become one. There has probably only been a few hundred people that have ever flown into space.
4) Asian Americans and Asians in general stress education a lot more than Americans. Everyone knows this. I'm not saying that Asians/Asian-Americans are better parents, but the average Asian/Asian-American stresses certain things in their child's development that tends to create kids who do well in school and don't fall by the wayside in society.
It's not about the type of Asian Americans that went to the U.S. Education being a priority has been ingrained in all Asian cultures.
Again, places like Korea, Japan, Taiwan, China, etc. tend to produce good citizens who are well educated, which usually ends up creating a balanced/good society.
But the west (mostly the U.S.) tends to generate more of the extremes. |
Populism isn't big in Latin America? A few white men hold all the power?? So I guess Chavez has no power, ha I wonder if he knows. Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. Well balanced, um yeah. |
Money is power. Power is not just about being the head of state. Chavez is making life hell for everyone, but white people hold most of the wealth in Latin America. All the people he mobilizes don't have any power besides their vote.
Chavez can't do anything to change that. He hasn't, he can't, and he won't. Every rich person in Venezuela is expatriating as much money as they can because of the ridiculous inflation rate in Venezuela.
Chavez can do whatever he wants, but once he's gone the money will be repatriated again and the same people who had the money before will control the country again. He can nationalize as many private enterprises as he wants but these are all just temporary setbacks for rich people. I know plenty of wealthy Venezuelans and they have all their assets in Miami just waiting for Chavez to disappear.
Wealth persists for generations and generations. Chavez can't do anything. 100 years from now there will be plenty of wealthy indigenous Latin Americans, but most of the rich latinos will still be of European descent. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Is Chavez a tiger mother? We're drifting a bit, no?
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| I would also say that not every child is creative nor should be taught to be creative. In fact I would submit that a majority of children are NOT creative and tailoring education to encourage creativity in them at the expense of learning skills does a great disservice. |
I agree with that. I'd say a solid 40% of the population is not disposed to be very creative.
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Asian high school>Western High School
Asian University < Western University |
That seems to be the East-West consensus. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:15 am Post subject: |
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/academic-success-of-east-asian-immigrants-overshadows-struggles-of-others/article1879602/?cmpid=rss1
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| The success of its immigrant students has made Canada a darling on the world stage, the only country with a high proportion of newcomers to rank near the top on international tests. |
"darling on the world stage". Ugh, the Canadian media is so annoying.
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But a closer look reveals the praise is overdone. Not all immigrant groups are thriving in Canadian schools, and the success of some is masking the struggles of others.
The stellar performance of East Asian students, those of Chinese background in particular, has lifted immigrant scores on the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development�s tests of 15-year-olds in math, science and reading, and obscured the fact that Hispanic and Caribbean students are slipping through the cracks.
But a distinctly Canadian squeamishness about gathering data based on ethnic and national origin means there�s a paucity of information to help understand the problem � just scattered hints that something isn�t right.
For example, only one in five Creole-speaking students in Montreal graduates from high school on time. Only 42 per cent of Latin American students in Toronto meet standards on Grade 6 math tests, compared with 86 per cent of East Asians. Vietnamese students fare better in Montreal than they do in Vancouver, but no one knows why.
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The one immigrant category that falls consistently below average are those whose families came from Latin America and the Caribbean, the source of roughly one in 10 immigrants to Canada in 2005. Only 23 per cent of the first generation go to university, by far the lowest rate among any immigrant group, according to a study by professors Ross Finnie and Richard Mueller. |
Just like America. Same order. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:08 am Post subject: |
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No question some Asians do better. We always hear how the Chinese invented papermaking, the compass, gunpowder, and printing. But they also invented meritocracy when the T'ang Dynasty implemented the examination system (some historians trace it as early as Cao Cao).
Meanwhile, what about some of the other Asians? The article mentions the Vietnamese, but Cambodians have a poor academic reputation as well. |
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travel zen
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:16 am Post subject: |
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To be able to sit and study is a good thing, but it wont make natural leaders.
I cant tell you how many times ppl came up to me in University and said that they wished they were more sociable (like me  ). If you are good at a thing, but cannot make use of it yourself, then you get used and told.
There are schools and courses for sociablity. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| travel zen wrote: |
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| And leadership is also not always predicated on great social skills. |
Wrong.
Imagine Elmer Fudd as a leader. |
Ulysses S. Grant hardly was not the most approachable of people. Hitler was a loon. Stonewall Jackson feuded constantly with his subordinates.
My dad was President of his payroll company (employing 25+ people), and served on the board of his EAA Chapter(70+ members) and the board at the Michigan Theater- A major historical theater, and his social skills aren't great. What he is good at is making decisions, not acting like a goofball and being impulsive, and doing the hard work. A lot of the people in charge are like that.
My uncle has a boatload of friends, would always my dad for being such a nerd, but no one would trust the guy with a cent, he virtually ran Mutual Savings Bank into the ground, squandering much of what my Grandfather built up and blew most of his inheritance in the divorce resulting from his casual lifestyle.
Being able to trust someone with your money is way more of a factor in leadership than "social skills".
Thinking at my friends who were "rebels" and my dorky Asian friends who didn't smoke weed or have a girlfriend (many of them blossomed socially in college life) who would I trust with my money?
Sure those "rebel" friends may have some great T-shirt design or a cool band or whatnot but only a few have any kind of discipline or attention or sense of responsibility to trust with money.
I think the best social education you can give is to have children interact with adults as much as possible, especially in a way that uses their talents and makes them part of something. I frankly don't care much if my kid can interact well with another 9 year old. If they're 9 and can have great interaction with adults, that is far more important. From Age 4-13 As long as they aren't a social retard, they're fine. 13+ is tricky...
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| To be able to sit and study is a good thing, but it wont make natural leaders. |
Again, not everyone is meant to be a leader. Not everyone should be trained to be a leader. If you do that you get a boat with 9 wannabe-coxswains and one rower. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| travel zen wrote: |
| To be able to sit and study is a good thing, but it wont make natural leaders. |
Natural leaders aren't built in a classroom. They're naturally that way. |
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Fat_Elvis
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: In the ghetto
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: The Model Minority Myth |
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| mises wrote: |
However, I firmly believe in group differences in cognitive ability. I have completed multivariate statistics and calculus classes both in Singapore and the United States and the difference in what the students were able to accomplish (and with what effort) is remarkable.
In the United States and Canada (East) Asians out perform every other group (except maybe Ashkenazi Jews). I believe East Asian women have a higher median income than white men. There is something else going on here.
The Western mind will probably refuse the group differences explanation. The Chinese are less bothered:
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/post.aspx?bid=354&bpid=26101 |
There are group differences in IQ, this has been shown time and again. However I think to attribute this entirely to heredity would be a mistake. IQ differences have been noted between Koreans in the USA and Koreans in Japan, where they are treated as second class citizens. Surely this suggests that class plays some part in IQ levels.
This recent study shows how coming from a poorer background affects mental ability. It's interesting in that it shows how environment and heredity both operate, and how environment adversely affects those from lower socio-economic groups whereas in higher socio-economic groups differences in mental ability are solely due to genetic differences.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703954004576090020541379588.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read
This would go some way towards explaining why IQ differences between African-Americans and white Americans have become smaller over the years, as the lot of African-Americans has improved due to the Civil Rights Act and affirmative action. |
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Fat_Elvis
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: In the ghetto
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| travel zen wrote: |
| To be able to sit and study is a good thing, but it wont make natural leaders. |
Natural leaders aren't built in a classroom. They're naturally that way. |
I agree that leaders aren't entirely made in the classroom, but it would have some effect. Leadership is such a broad set of factors I very much doubt that it can be reduced to heredity, if that's what you're suggesting. That is until they discover the leadership gene. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:22 am Post subject: Re: The Model Minority Myth |
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| Fat_Elvis wrote: |
There are group differences in IQ, this has been shown time and again. However I think to attribute this entirely to heredity would be a mistake.
This recent study shows how coming from a poorer background affects mental ability. |
It is not a 1:1 relationship. Culture, diet (poverty), crappy parents all matter.
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| In Hypercompetitive South Korea, Pressures Mount on Young Pupils |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpS2JJYfbZ8
The Koreans work hard. It helps that they're a very bright people. |
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travel zen
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| I agree that leaders aren't entirely made in the classroom, but it would have some effect. Leadership is such a broad set of factors I very much doubt that it can be reduced to heredity, if that's what you're suggesting. That is until they discover the leadership gene. |
I dunno. In classrooms, depending on the age, a socially awkward person may become the flavor of the year later on, but some/many do grow up to be introverted, awkward adults. I've looked up people on Facebook from back in the day and this seems to be true for my class/generation.
Being bookish does hurt other attributes. An extreme would be Rain Man, a lesser extreme would be people who can only speak about mathematics or science. I would not want to be, or push my children into being bookish nerds...not for anything. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Conversely we have people with great social skills who are utter dunces. And today we have a large number of people with good social skills who are still dunces, but our education system thinks they are quite alright.
Who needs to know what "Yellow Journalism" is or how a Parliamentary system of government works. I have social skills. |
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travel zen
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Its an interesting topic, but I can guarantee you that people with very good social skills get the jobs they are not even qualified for, become bosses and higher ups, and get (because they demand, influence) better salary than those that have very weak social skills.
The difference is being a cog in the machine vs being the operator of the cogs.
When I say social skills, I don't mean the big mouths that we all see around us, bossy walrus-types who talk out their gullet about nonsense.
I mean the smoochers, the slick people who go get what they want from speaking to people and from those connections. No degree? No problem, we will train you! |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: The Model Minority Myth |
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| mises wrote: |
The Koreans work hard. It helps that they're a very bright people. |
How many different people in different countries do you know? How many other countries have you lived in? Koreans don't strike me as being "a very bright people". Hard working, yes.
Creators, innovators, LATERAL THINKERS - No. All the shiny technology was borrowed courtesy of Japan (which was mostly given that technology by America post WW2). All the developments that propelled Korea into the 19th century onwards came about through foreign powers and other sources - and it's telling that many of the developments were initially viewed with hostility by the Korean masses including bicycles and the postal service.
The over-conformity in Korea (which is more conformist than Japan by the way) stifles the qualities I mentioned. Throw in the lack of reasoning ability in terms of not being able to look at opposing points of view and synthesise them, not having an education system which teaches people to look at REASONS FOR WHY things, modes of thinking, etc exist and Korea represents the downside of Asian cultures. Korea's Confucian heirarchies make that downside worse.
As a foreigner I have to say I have never seen people in daily life engage in such unthinking behaviour as the Koreans watching while toddlers and children run out into busy streets full of cars, recklessly passing buses in front of them in narrow streets where they can't see what's coming, not following normal occupational health and safety procedures (incidents at school too numerous to name, on busy streets men welding with no protective gear in their workshops but worse, doing this activity right up in the face of passers by) and other potentially dangerous behaviours. The normality of it in Korea is striking.
Lack of commonsense as something that is observed fairly regularly in Korea does not at all point to "very bright people".  |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: The Model Minority Myth |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
| As a foreigner I have to say I have never seen people in daily life engage in such unthinking behaviour as the Koreans watching while toddlers and children run out into busy streets full of cars, recklessly passing buses in front of them in narrow streets where they can't see what's coming, not following normal occupational health and safety procedures (incidents at school too numerous to name, on busy streets men welding with no protective gear in their workshops but worse, doing this activity right up in the face of passers by) and other potentially dangerous behaviours. The normality of it in Korea is striking. |
Funny, almost everything you mentioned here was common in North American until the late 80's/early 90's.
I remember just jumping around in the back seat of the car, sticking my head out of the window, and nobody cared. |
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