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sojusucks
Joined: 31 May 2008
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hondaicivic
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Daegu, South Korea
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 Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:20 am Post subject: Re: PBS News Hour: Pressures on Young Korean Students |
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The mainstream media in the US finally picked this up?... |
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nzbradly78
Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Korea has had a rep for a grueling school system for a long time. Since I was a kid in the '80's. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Hell if my family held power for 700 years I'd continue the policy of keeping the majority of people shackled up in study and work, as these days you can't just outright physically own them as slaves. Besides, having them pump money into the education business and consumer economy just funnels more money to the top, so I can just pay them to do what I want...and then own their minds through institutionalized education/mass media and enforcing 'traditional' values and grinding down any opposition wherever it may crop up. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Say what you will. It is a meritocracy system in the end. You get a good exam score, and go to a good university, you will get a good job. No SNU people with Master's Degrees flipping burgers with 100k in debt. If you do not succeed you blame yourself, not "the system" or "Wall Street".
Unfortunately you have all the negatives which we are well aware of, plus the problem of those that still go to college, but didn't go to a top school and lack jobs, is a big problem here. Bigger than back home I think.
One thing that is preventing riots in the streets is the extended family network that Koreans have. Someone in the family will get them some kind of job. Living with mom and dad isn't seen as the end of the world socially. Military service also helps defer the economic tension.
However as family ties decline and the new slacker generation grows, it will be interesting to see what will happen... |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, it's a meritocracy so long as you've got enough money to be in the game. Even then you're playing for the prize of slaving for Samsung.
Behind the scenes perhaps even less of a meritocracy than the states, which may be why a lot of those with merit try to high-tail it out of here to the US, Australia, etc. |
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oldfatfarang
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: On the road to somewhere.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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You can't fool Korean parents. There's a reason why so many Korean parents (with money) send their kids to be educated in so many other countries.
They know their own public/private education system is outdated - and doesn't prepare their kids for the 'real' world that is undoubtedly coming to Korea, sooner or later.
Thirty thousand Koreans living in little old NZ. What's up with that? They sure aren't there for the economy - they're there to take advantage of the education system. And that is only the tip of the ice-burg. Public schoot NET's, ask around your school/s and see how many Korean public school teachers send their kids abroad to be educated.
Good luck. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| legrande wrote: |
Yeah, it's a meritocracy so long as you've got enough money to be in the game. Even then you're playing for the prize of slaving for Samsung.
Behind the scenes perhaps even less of a meritocracy than the states, which may be why a lot of those with merit try to high-tail it out of here to the US, Australia, etc. |
Well of course the rich are still going to get their kids into SNU, no matter what, and advance them. The point is that for some kid in a farmfield, all they have to do is score well on that exam and get into a good college and their family's fortunes will be transformed.
Slaving for Samsung sucks. But slaving under the toil of the sun in a rice paddy sucks a lot more. I think we have a pretty spoiled perspective on what "slaving" and "hard work" are.
Case in point, the owner of the pizza parlor I used to work at was Korean. Grew up in a dirt poor village, kicking a sheep's stomach for a soccer ball, no family connections, brother killed in the war. He went on to be on the Board at Chase's Korea division because he studied like a dog. Now he's semi-retired in the States enjoying golf on a daily basis.
The fact that the connected can get in and run things is not a sign of this place not being a meritocracy, that stuff will always happen, and happens in every country. What will ceases to make Korea a meritocracy is if that kid on the farm can't end up getting a "good" job by getting a good score.
If it ever comes to that, expect to see protests and upheaval. But for now, people have enough confidence in the system that they are satisfied enough to prevent riots.
Right now in the West we are nearing a crisis of confidence in our system to ensure "success". Having a great education is now no longer a guarantee. You may end up with massive debt, your job could be outsourced or made obsolete, your company could Enron itself. The social safety net is being fought over. Given the student riots and the Tea Party I would say that the West is very much facing a discussion over whether or not meritocracy still exists. Note, that I am saying West for brevity's sake. Nothing like this crisis is apparent in Canada or Australia or Scandanavia.
| Quote: |
| Behind the scenes perhaps even less of a meritocracy than the states, which may be why a lot of those with merit try to high-tail it out of here to the US, Australia, etc. |
Sure many do. Some find that in fact the US is not always the entrepreneurial paradise it is thought of as. Some get a rude awakening. And as for Uni students in only reinforces what I've said- go to a top school (in Korea or the US) and get a "good" job.
Is the Korean system perfect? No, far from it. Something is wrong when young people don't want to work in a Hyundai factory for GOOD wages because its seen as "dirty". Korea's Higher Education system is middling at best.
What I am saying is that there is a defined way to success here. The people believe in it. If they didn't you'd see significant social unrest. |
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Stalin84
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Location: Haebangchon, Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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I always thought the final exam was incredibly unfair. It's on a par with making three year olds write an exam in order to get into a good kindergarten. High School kids have no clue about what their real strengths and weaknesses are, so why pin this life-or-death test on them at such a young age? No wonder so many of them commit suicide.
When I was in High School, the difference between the achievers and failures within the school was as bright as day. One group went to the IB classrooms, one group went to the mainstream classrooms and another group (like me) went to the remedial education classrooms where all we did was pick up garbage around school property.
These days when I'm Facebook browsing, I notice that some of the "achievers" are doing nothing. In some cases, they dropped out of university their first year and have three kids already. Meanwhile, some of the remedial kids are off doing their MAs or off being successful at something (I know a guy who dropped out of High School to join the army and he's making a fortune).
Anyway, there is a reason why we use universities to weed out people in the West. They become of age and maturity in most respects during their post secondary and can validly be weeded out. In High School, no one has any idea of which kids are going to succeed and which aren't. Sometimes it seems obvious, most of the time it's not. |
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jdog2050
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Say what you will. It is a meritocracy system in the end. You get a good exam score, and go to a good university, you will get a good job. No SNU people with Master's Degrees flipping burgers with 100k in debt. If you do not succeed you blame yourself, not "the system" or "Wall Street".
Unfortunately you have all the negatives which we are well aware of, plus the problem of those that still go to college, but didn't go to a top school and lack jobs, is a big problem here. Bigger than back home I think.
One thing that is preventing riots in the streets is the extended family network that Koreans have. Someone in the family will get them some kind of job. Living with mom and dad isn't seen as the end of the world socially. Military service also helps defer the economic tension.
However as family ties decline and the new slacker generation grows, it will be interesting to see what will happen... |
I don't see how you can have paragraph one, and then paragraph two, and say it's a meritocracy. Do you have any clue what it's like to work at a Korean office? Because there ain't a whole lot to do with merit happening. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| jdog2050 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Say what you will. It is a meritocracy system in the end. You get a good exam score, and go to a good university, you will get a good job. No SNU people with Master's Degrees flipping burgers with 100k in debt. If you do not succeed you blame yourself, not "the system" or "Wall Street".
Unfortunately you have all the negatives which we are well aware of, plus the problem of those that still go to college, but didn't go to a top school and lack jobs, is a big problem here. Bigger than back home I think.
One thing that is preventing riots in the streets is the extended family network that Koreans have. Someone in the family will get them some kind of job. Living with mom and dad isn't seen as the end of the world socially. Military service also helps defer the economic tension.
However as family ties decline and the new slacker generation grows, it will be interesting to see what will happen... |
I don't see how you can have paragraph one, and then paragraph two, and say it's a meritocracy. Do you have any clue what it's like to work at a Korean office? Because there ain't a whole lot to do with merit happening. |
By merit I was referring to getting into that office via the education system. You go to one of the top Unis here or abroad, you get the job. Now you may be stuck with limited mobility. But what you don't have is some guy with a big Uni degree flipping burgers with 100k in loans. The simplistic hiring process here looks at Uni and thinks you're great based on that. A system with flaws, but it does provide certainty.
Once there the usual butt-smooching and nepotism kicks in. |
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jdog2050
Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| jdog2050 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Say what you will. It is a meritocracy system in the end. You get a good exam score, and go to a good university, you will get a good job. No SNU people with Master's Degrees flipping burgers with 100k in debt. If you do not succeed you blame yourself, not "the system" or "Wall Street".
Unfortunately you have all the negatives which we are well aware of, plus the problem of those that still go to college, but didn't go to a top school and lack jobs, is a big problem here. Bigger than back home I think.
One thing that is preventing riots in the streets is the extended family network that Koreans have. Someone in the family will get them some kind of job. Living with mom and dad isn't seen as the end of the world socially. Military service also helps defer the economic tension.
However as family ties decline and the new slacker generation grows, it will be interesting to see what will happen... |
I don't see how you can have paragraph one, and then paragraph two, and say it's a meritocracy. Do you have any clue what it's like to work at a Korean office? Because there ain't a whole lot to do with merit happening. |
By merit I was referring to getting into that office via the education system. You go to one of the top Unis here or abroad, you get the job. Now you may be stuck with limited mobility. But what you don't have is some guy with a big Uni degree flipping burgers with 100k in loans. The simplistic hiring process here looks at Uni and thinks you're great based on that. A system with flaws, but it does provide certainty.
Once there the usual butt-smooching and nepotism kicks in. |
Yeaaaahhhh. Again, though, maybe we're disagreeing on the word merit, here. I don't have enough time to go into this, but I feel like, when you're going for a job back home, everything is looked at: university, clubs, activities, study abroad, life experience...*that's* meritocracy to me. Just looking at someone's university isn't nepotism per-se, but it's pretty damned close. |
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ThingsComeAround
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Bae Eun-hee hit the nail on the head.
Korea's view of what is defined as "success" (money, prestige) needs to change. Success should instead be defined as a person satisfied with themselves and is healthy- rather than working for a "top company" earning top dollar.
I think the problem is not education in and of its self, the problem is many lack a joy of learning just for learning's sake.
The end had a good message- several Koreans wish for happiness on a padlock at Seoul Tower, yet 'few actually take the time to enjoy it'. I ask several Koreans why they work so hard when they don't take a rest, have time with their family, and I believe they really haven't looked inward and defined what 'happiness' is for them- it has been defined already by society. That sucks the most. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| jdog2050 wrote: |
Yeaaaahhhh. Again, though, maybe we're disagreeing on the word merit, here. I don't have enough time to go into this, but I feel like, when you're going for a job back home, everything is looked at: university, clubs, activities, study abroad, life experience...*that's* meritocracy to me. Just looking at someone's university isn't nepotism per-se, but it's pretty damned close. |
Take for example Affirmative-Action, is that merit? Is hiring someone based onw hat club they are in ok? If clubs are okay, what about frats? What about being a Mason?
The most important thing people are going to hire off of is discipline. The company is taking a financial risk with you. If they see someone with a track record of focus and drive, they'll tend to pick that person.
Remember the "life experience" of backpacking through Europe is valuable, but so is the "life experience" of hitting the books and getting the grades. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| legrande wrote: |
Yeah, it's a meritocracy so long as you've got enough money to be in the game. Even then you're playing for the prize of slaving for Samsung.
Behind the scenes perhaps even less of a meritocracy than the states, which may be why a lot of those with merit try to high-tail it out of here to the US, Australia, etc. |
Well of course the rich are still going to get their kids into SNU, no matter what, and advance them. The point is that for some kid in a farmfield, all they have to do is score well on that exam and get into a good college and their family's fortunes will be transformed.
Slaving for Samsung sucks. But slaving under the toil of the sun in a rice paddy sucks a lot more. I think we have a pretty spoiled perspective on what "slaving" and "hard work" are.
Case in point, the owner of the pizza parlor I used to work at was Korean. Grew up in a dirt poor village, kicking a sheep's stomach for a soccer ball, no family connections, brother killed in the war. He went on to be on the Board at Chase's Korea division because he studied like a dog. Now he's semi-retired in the States enjoying golf on a daily basis.
The fact that the connected can get in and run things is not a sign of this place not being a meritocracy, that stuff will always happen, and happens in every country. What will ceases to make Korea a meritocracy is if that kid on the farm can't end up getting a "good" job by getting a good score.
If it ever comes to that, expect to see protests and upheaval. But for now, people have enough confidence in the system that they are satisfied enough to prevent riots.
Right now in the West we are nearing a crisis of confidence in our system to ensure "success". Having a great education is now no longer a guarantee. You may end up with massive debt, your job could be outsourced or made obsolete, your company could Enron itself. The social safety net is being fought over. Given the student riots and the Tea Party I would say that the West is very much facing a discussion over whether or not meritocracy still exists. Note, that I am saying West for brevity's sake. Nothing like this crisis is apparent in Canada or Australia or Scandanavia.
| Quote: |
| Behind the scenes perhaps even less of a meritocracy than the states, which may be why a lot of those with merit try to high-tail it out of here to the US, Australia, etc. |
Sure many do. Some find that in fact the US is not always the entrepreneurial paradise it is thought of as. Some get a rude awakening. And as for Uni students in only reinforces what I've said- go to a top school (in Korea or the US) and get a "good" job.
Is the Korean system perfect? No, far from it. Something is wrong when young people don't want to work in a Hyundai factory for GOOD wages because its seen as "dirty". Korea's Higher Education system is middling at best.
What I am saying is that there is a defined way to success here. The people believe in it. If they didn't you'd see significant social unrest. |
Once upon a time that farm kid had a reasonable chance. These days he or she has two chances--slim and none. He's going to a public school with shoddy facilities and teachers who are less than the cream of the crop. He's competing against kids who have attended institutes for years, have private tutors and who if they don't make it on the first go-round, can sit out and study for one, two or three years.
If his or her parents send him to a boarding school in a larger city then they got a chance. But that's not quite a meritocracy. And without connections it's going to be tough for the farm kid to get a good job.
As for significant social unrest, I think the Koreans in New Zealand posted above is your answer. People who are shut out of the system leave or commit sucide in protest. Plus the Confucian system keeps people in "their place."
Besides which, almost every disabled person in Korea wants to immigrate to a country where they'll get a fair shot.
And again you fail to realize the importance of qualitative distinctions. Sure, connections will help you in the U.S., but they only go so far. In Korea they'll take you right to the top, no matter how poorly you perform. I saw that all the time at Samsung.
Plus, don't forget the white envelopes. Not many jobs are literally for sale in the U.S. |
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