Korean Job Discussion Forums

[ESL Milk "Everyday]

[jrwhite82]

Yeah, I feel you on that about useless undergrad degrees. Why even offer liberal arts degrees in college? They really do nothing for us after graduation. I can see the importance of having some liberal arts classes...but to major in it? Pretty much useless....

So I can see not having to go back to get a full degree, so that's why I said they should have to get a TESL certificate if you don't have a teaching degree/certification.

In pretty much any country in the world, if you are teaching children, you need to have studied pedagogy and taken a certification test. So I don't see why it is different here for ESL.

Even in the US if you want to work at a daycare center, most require you to have an Early Childhood certificate of some kind.

[ssuprnova]

[jrwhite82]

Ok here is a better idea for Korea that will allow them to still meet their demand.

Make the certification part of the professional development process as opposed to an entry requirement. That way if you want to renew, you have to take a TESL course.

This could be great for Korea for two reasons. One, it ensures that renewing teachers will begin to become more highly qualified and more effective. Two, it will bring in money and create jobs through all the teachers needing to take their classes and tests.

[tiger fancini]

Having a university degree in any subject does not make one qualified to teach second language acquisition. I liked the suggestion of at least needing some kind of TEFL/TESL/TESOL qualification to work here. The qualification should include a minimum amount of time (eg. 6 hours) of teaching practice, under the supervision of an assessor. They're not that expensive, and I'd say that the first paycheck should cover about 80-90% of it.

Recruiters also need to stop targeting recent graduates and making ridiculous promises about a year in Korea being an extension of student life. It's not. They have to reinforce the fact that most employers and customers want professionalism and ultimately, results. Min-Su's parents want him to enjoy the class, but they also want him to learn something too.

[ESL Milk "Everyday]

Believe it or not, there was a magical time in the past where cab drivers could become copywriters and hippies were dropping out of school and building computers in their garages and everyday people were making killings on the stock market just by being smart about it. This is not a 'problem' that another certificate can fix... and I honestly can't believe people would advocate this kind of thing. There's too many programs and courses in the world... we need to fundamentally change people's attitudes... towards ESL, towards Korea, and towards themselves.

If there were less 'this job is a joke' kind of comments flying around and more 'this is a good, respectable job that deserves to be taken seriously' going around then I'm sure things would improve, because people would feel like this is something worth putting time and effort into.

To be honest, I can't even get it through my head what exact objective fact even makes this job such a joke. The notion that this job is a joke seems to be like this gigantic snowball of a delusion that began somewhere in the past and continued to this day... until we get future wage slaves who think they've got the whole world coming to them laughing at the notion that you would want to spend your time trying to improve the English-speaking abilities of children. Yeah, it's a lot more worthwhile to come up with a new slogan for #$%^ing hemorrhoid cream, or spend your days trying to make money off of some a-hole who burnt his fingers when the MacDonald's girl handed him his morning coffee... or working to make some other a-hole (who you hate) to become richer and richer.

You're not going to magically change anything or anyone by taking a course in ESL/EFL. I don't know why people think so highly of 'courses' when most people are just going through them to get the piece of paper that says 'I don't completely suck at life'-- and most of them don't give a crap about the actual content. If you really want to learn, try using your own brain and communicating with other people... pay attention and take pride in what you do. You really can't equate taking pride in your work with having a degree, especially since the whole education system is set up to completely negate independent thought and you're constantly deferring to someone who is also deferring to someone-- and most of the information is widely available anyways, so you're actually just paying to submit to their interpretations of that information. In some cases, not even that... because in some cases there's actually zero guidance and you're doing everything yourself/in groups anyway-- like teacher's college, for example.

I suppose that the simplest answer would be to stop renewing/ rewarding the screwups, and give incentives to the good teachers. People who don't believe in their jobs will always find ways to get those jobs anyway, so you can't really keep them out. I mean, they need to make a living and for the most part they would prefer a living that keeps them comfortable... like ESL does.

[jrwhite82]

Well, I'd like to think that doctors who got through med school are better at practicing medicine than someone who didnt.

I also like to think that lawyers who pass the bar are more qualified than those who can't.

Teachers who studied education and passed certification exams are usually better than those who didn't.

I'd rather higher an accountant to manage my money (if I had any to begin with) than someone with a journalism degree.

And to be that taxi-driver from your example, I'm pretty sure you need to go through some kind of licensing and testing (in addition to your driver's license!)

Of course there is the exception to every case above, but again, you can't design a system of education around the exceptions.

So according to you, maybe Korea shouldn't even require a BA/BS or even a HS Diploma to be an English teacher? Let's just deregulate education.

You call it "Being smart" about the stock market. I call it taking advantage of a system by bending (sometimes breaking rules) because there is no one to tell you what you're doing isn't right. Then making others foot the bill for it. That's not an ideal system to me. But we obviously have different views on the topic.

[jrwhite82]

And for every one guy who made it big making a computer or some software in his basement, there are hundreds who fail.

How many garage bands didn't make it big? A few did really great, but thousands failed.

So you say that you should reward those that take it seriously and kick those who don't care out. Well, I think by setting up requirements for professional development will do that, without even harming those that really care. Because they are already doing that anyway. Those that don't want to, will have to leave.

Why is a doctor not a joke? Because of the amount of time and effort they have to put in to get there. Because they spend their lives helping people. Because they make a lot of money doing it. Because of the amount of continuous professional development they must undertake to stay on top of the best ways to treat patients.

So what's the difference between that and ESL teacher? Well ESL teacher in Korea has to make no effort to get here (compared to Med school anyway). We are trying to help people, so that's very similar. (at least we should be trying) We don't make a lot of money doing it, so that kind of makes us almost more admirable when you take my previous sentence into account. And we don't do any professional development to get better at helping our students. So....yeah, that's ridiculous. Let's learn something about how to do our jobs better. Then we will be taken more seriously.

[silkhighway]

I tend to agree with ESL Milk on this one. What's broken with the system now? I don't think making teachers jump through more hoops to come to Korea would improve very much. Degrees in education and certifications are major investments of time and money. Do you really want to jump through those kind of hoops for what is essentially a temporary job? If you think that NETs will get more respect and better longterm benefits and job security because they jumped through these hoops, I think you're getting the chicken and the egg mixed up.

As a native speaker, you're just wanted for lab practice to provide an English environment and they're never going to give you any more responsibility than that. I'm not saying it's an easy job, but it's not exactly brain surgeory either and there is a lot of room to learn as you go.If there was extra money to kick around, they could improve recruiting and training (Korean teacher training) standards, to make sure they're getting ambitious, friendly intelligent teachers that are being placed with Korean teachers that know how to make use of them.

[jrwhite82]

Well, I think if collectively there were higher standards for applicants, you would place more highly qualified teachers in schools and that would improve the system.

If you raise the bar from having a BA to having a degree in education or a BA + a TESL, you will have more teachers here who have been exposed to teaching and language learning. These teachers will know how to teach effectively better than those who studied medieval warfare theory. This will increase the effectiveness of the system. I know its an inconvenience to those that would have to do it. But I was answering the question on how to increase the quality of NETs in Korea.

What would you do?

[enchoo]

I guess you need to defend against me^^

[some waygug-in]

In answer to the original question...


Stop hiring them.

Every year Korea hires boatloads of fresh university grads with no experience and degrees unrelated to teaching.

Then they whine and complain that the foreign teachers have no training and don't act like professionals.

Well, who hired them?


The few times I've seen certified teachers come here they were treated the same as Joe Schmoe with a BA in basket weaving.

Day one:

NET walks into classroom.


Kt says Ok pick up chalk and write your name on board.

OK say name to students.

Ok stand here and I call you.

KT then proceeds to teach the class in Korean.


If you want certified teachers to come and work here, there's a lot more that needs to change than just "money".

They have to be willing to allow NET's to teach.

[silkhighway]

[ESL Milk "Everyday]

I don't think that what we're doing requires the kind of knowledge that doctors need-- we teach English conversation. And no, I don't suppose that someone who studied medicine independently would be considered a doctor, but if they have the same knowledge and know exactly what the problem is and can diagnose and explain why they think it's that and what to do about it, and if time and time again they were right, then they're still capable of getting a good result. And as everyone else has been pointing out, I'm not sure that Korea can afford to raise the bar on standards.

The biggest problem with ESL (again, as others in this thread have pointed out) isn't that we're not qualified, it's that most of us are treated like jokes by the schools and the Korean teachers we're working with, and so we behave that way until it's time to GTFO.

If you treat people like potentially great teachers as opposed to a nuisance or an entertainer, then they'll eventually try to fit into that role. I'm not saying go easy on them or don't be wary or whatever... but take some time to help them out and show them some things, or ask for their ideas, or heck-- give the new NETs assignments and ask them to come up with new ideas and tell them to come up with lesson plans/ideas on how to help the kids, and then discuss them as a group in English Dept. meetings-- and if they're not willing to listen or contribute or participate, then fire them. They could actually make each and every school like a kind of teacher's college that counts towards some sort of credit where the year-end evaluation gives them a new certification that helps them to get jobs elsewhere/entitles them to a raise in pay... but it would have to make sense and have a definite set of criteria. If we're already being watched/evaluated anyway, then what's the difference???

Most real teachers have meetings like this all of the time... not just school meetings, meetings between teachers of each grade level... because that's the most important part of teaching, is being humble and open and receptive to new ideas and to share and learn from each other and work as a team. But this never ever happens with us.

One huge problem is that most people's idea of a lesson plan is this anal-retentive list of everything that's going to happen in the class and no one is looking at the big picture. (Good) Schools back home didn't just plan on a daily or weekly basis-- they had yearly learning targets and monthly/bi-monthly themes and projects, etc.... absolutely everything is organized and accounted for and put in place, and everyone is always working towards a goal. But here, everyone is working towards their vacation time.

Another problem is that Koreans don't work as a team-- they just do whatever the principal says. And if he doesn't want to say anything, they do what the vice principal says. There is no back and forth. So if someone has a good idea, it is almost never heard.

It sounds counter-intuitive, but sometimes the best way to get people to improve their work is to give them more responsibilities and more of a say as opposed to just treating them like a monkey. At least, that worked for me (kind of)...

[edwardcatflap]