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Son Deureo!
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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 Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:13 am Post subject: |
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This is the most ridiculous thread I have ever seen on Dave's, and it's beating a lot of tough competition!
OP, here's my advice to you if whatever you're doing has caused you to be hit by a car more than once:
Stop doing it. |
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Eglayzer
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Gimhae-si, near Busan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Eglayzer wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| . All I am doing is asserting my rights. |
But what about ones responsibility to promote safe traffic overall? I'm sorry but a bicyclist going 10 mph below the speed limit down the middle of the lane is not promoting road safety or the smooth flow of traffic.
I agree there needs to be more bike lanes, but I disagree that the street is the safest place. The edge of the sidewalk is far safer for bicyclists, motorists, while presenting minimal risk to pedestrians.
I'm a bit prejudiced because back home my town really tried to give to cyclists and they'd just run with it. Obnoxious behavior like taking up the middle of a lane in a 45mph zone. Being in the middle of the lane with their toddler in one of those bike-attached toddler carriers in a 45mph zone. It really made me question what was going on in their minds. To say nothing of the ajosshi-style hiking deckout, only in this case its bike clothes. Sorry dude, you aren't Lance Armstrong and you look like a goof.
| Quote: |
| When was the last time you rode a bicycle? |
One of the recent times I rode a bicycle some other cyclist gave me crap because I went at a leisurely pace, had a basket, and didn't have my rear in the air. I was just going from point A to point B to pick something from the store. Sorry I wasn't clad in Spandex and sweating buckets. Again, prejudiced me against the cycling crowd.
I'm more ranting in this thread than really advocating a position. My official position is that I endorse more bike lanes and that cycling is a green way to travel.
But man some cyclists out there have issues....(and so do I judging by this rant) |
Oh were to begin....
Bicycle lanes have been shown to be far less safe than road cycling. Bike lanes are no the answer. Roads are not for cars. Roads are for people, the public, to use. They are a public space like many others. Everyone is allowed to use them.
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Look, I'll support sharing the road if the cyclists can drop this "roads aren't for cars" anti-common sense nonsense. Roads are primarily for cars and also for bikes and people. They are designed with cars in mind. It's like saying an AK is a hunting tool. Sure, kinda, but not really.
Sooner or later bicyclists will take this theory to the extreme and then the driving public will legislate their excesses out of existence. Business moves through cars, not bicycles. If deliveries are taking longer because bicyclists try to take over the roads things will break down.
It will be an ignorant backlash against bicyclists like the smoking bans or something. A failure of compromise.
It doesn't help that many cyclists and pedestrians ignore the law as well. How many cyclists signal properly? I would not say a majority do. What about jaywalking pedestrians?
The reason the car is the villain is because it is "big" and comes across as a bully. Objectively however cyclists and pedestrians are just as much a factor in bad road behavior. Here and back home. I mean one talks about the Korean disrespect for pedestrians, but I imagine if we mostly drove instead of walked, we'd be cursing Korean pedestrians with their lack of attention, cell-phone preoccupation, jaywalking, and drunken stumbling.
| Quote: |
| The sidewalk is the LEAST safe place for a bicycle to be. There are countless studies that prove this and all you need to do is google it. Most car/bike accidents happen because the driver of the vehicle "didn't see" the bicyclist until it was too late. |
I think the sidewalk would lead to more accidents. I think it would also reduce fatalities. I'd imagine that most of these accidents involve a car making a turn and clipping a cyclist as they cross a street or alley. As such they are going at a much slower speed than a road accident. Broken bones maybe, but small chance of death.
Now cyclists biking down the middle of a 45mph zone....
| Quote: |
| I am guessing that the reason I have gotten hit so much is because I have a strong belief as to my rights to the road/sidewalk as both a pedestrian and a cyclist. When I first arrived in Seoul I used to duck and cover whenever a car got too close to me, and I would run to the gutter. I am over that. Now I stand my ground. I think the reason I keep getting hit is that now I stand my ground virtually every time and drivers expect that, if they get REALLY close to you with their cars, then you will move for them. Not me, I would rather them bang their side mirrors. |
Well then time to make the big bucks...have a trailer and have them record the incident and get a nice white envelope.
At the same time the way life works is that people work around each other. Yes you shouldn't have to move, but neither should they.
It's like smoking- I should be able to smoke in a place if the owner says so. At the same-time people have the right not to be exposed to carcinogens. The way to deal with this is compromise, not drawing lines in the sand. |
Most of this is stupid, not in the least because I have now asked you five times to stay on topic.
Imagine if someone who drives a car once a year were to start telling other people, who drive every single day of their lives, how to do it. You have no idea what your talking about. Please educate yourself before trying to tell me what the safest way to ride a bike is. Go read ANY cycling manual and they will repeat exactly what I have said on this thread.
Again, you can read this link if you want to know every single reason why cyclists are safer on the road, and in the middle of the lane. However, I don't want that to become the subject of this thread.
http://bicyclesafe.com/ |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| You are the one being hit by cars not the people replying to you. so they must know more bout how not to be hit by cars. So instead of talking about manuals why not take their advice. Believe me, you alone are not going to change Korean driving habits. I rode a bike in Korea for years and never ever had the idea of challenging traffic to make a point. |
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Eglayzer
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Gimhae-si, near Busan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| You are the one being hit by cars not the people replying to you. so they must know more bout how not to be hit by cars. So instead of talking about manuals why not take their advice. Believe me, you alone are not going to change Korean driving habits. I rode a bike in Korea for years and never ever had the idea of challenging traffic to make a point. |
You are confusing my conversation about bicycle manuals with the topic of the thread, which is pedestrians getting hit, or nearly hit, by cars.
While I realize I won't change their driving habits, I never said that is what I am trying to do. As I have said from the beginning, I am asking if there is anyone out their with a similar issue and am trying to come up with constructive solutions. Jumping out of the way of every car that I happen to cross paths with is not practical and I am frankly just not willing to do it. I am talking here about side view mirrors hitting my arm. I am not talking about jumping out in front of cars to get them to hit me to prove a point. As I have said, all I am doing is not running away and I see nothing wrong with that.
Obviously I am talking to a bunch of, primarily, drivers who could careless about the rights of any other mode of transportation other than the one that they have chosen for themselves. That's fine. However, its still blaming the victim. If a driver hits a pedestrian, its not the victims fault. If someone gets shot while walking through a bad part of town, thats not the victims fault either. Cyclists, pedestrians, and people who end up walking through bad neighborhoods often have little choice in the matter. They live one place and need to get to work in another whether they can afford the means of transit that wealthy have chosen as ideal or not. |
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goniff
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:46 am Post subject: |
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it's really simple
in korea you need to learn to walk, ride and drive (and maybe live) defensively at all times
err... just curious but why do you walk in the street? (unless it's in Haebangchon) |
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Eglayzer
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Gimhae-si, near Busan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| goniff wrote: |
it's really simple
in korea you need to learn to walk, ride and drive (and maybe live) defensively at all times
err... just curious but why do you walk in the street? (unless it's in Haebangchon) |
As I said, I don't walk in the street unless there is no sidewalk which is the case for much of my route to work. Most of the times I have been struck the car was going pretty slow. I live in a very old part of Dongdeamungu that has not be redeveloped in years which is why the sidewalks often don't exist. However, the streets are also very narrow which makes cycling safer and easier. |
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brier
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:59 am Post subject: Re: Anyone Get Hit By Cars a Lot Here? |
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| Eglayzer wrote: |
| I but at that point I was so pissed that I did the Western, throw my hands up in the air in disgust thing |
Irritable foreigner syndrome, we all get it from time to time. |
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goniff
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:08 am Post subject: |
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here's a tip:
when walking always get behind other koreans as a barrier between you and the traffic
koreans are reluctant to hit their own kind
but if there is only you they'll run you over with no compunction
and then probably reverse to finish the job |
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Savant
Joined: 25 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:27 am Post subject: |
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My Korean girlfriend told me not to ride my bike on the road because even she does not believe the roads are safe for cyclists.
I don't do it because I value my life.
It's bad enough riding on the bike paths along the Han sometimes; I would hate to ride on the roads on a daily basis.
Korean drivers not only have disrespect for pedestrians but other road users too. Fact of life here.
Riding a bike on the sidewalk here is not as easy as it sounds.
Japan seems to have it down better. Ring your bike bell there and everyone normally moves to the same side.
However, in Korea, when you ring your bell you get complete randomness from Koreans; some move left, some move right, and some don't even move out the way. If it's hard enough to navigate the sidewalk when walking; then trying to do it with a bike is miles more difficult. |
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Eglayzer
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Gimhae-si, near Busan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| Savant wrote: |
My Korean girlfriend told me not to ride my bike on the road because even she does not believe the roads are safe for cyclists.
I don't do it because I value my life.
It's bad enough riding on the bike paths along the Han sometimes; I would hate to ride on the roads on a daily basis.
Korean drivers not only have disrespect for pedestrians but other road users too. Fact of life here.
Riding a bike on the sidewalk here is not as easy as it sounds.
Japan seems to have it down better. Ring your bike bell there and everyone normally moves to the same side.
However, in Korea, when you ring your bell you get complete randomness from Koreans; some move left, some move right, and some don't even move out the way. If it's hard enough to navigate the sidewalk when walking; then trying to do it with a bike is miles more difficult. |
I agree with you about the sidewalks in Korea being a death trap. As for the roads I also agree with you for parts of Seoul but not all of the city. South of the river is much worse than North of the river. Once you get outside of the major cities bicycles are a lot more comfortable to ride on the roads. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| Air horn? |
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Illysook
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Cycling on sidewalks is not safe. Adult pedestrians are completely unpredictable, and then there are dogs, kids, wheelchairs, and other assorted obstacles.
Having said this, I don't feel much safer on busy streets. Bicycle awareness isn't taught in the typical driver's ed class. It should be, but it isn't. Maybe cycling activists and advocates should be lobbying for this instead of simply "asserting" their rights on the road. |
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:05 am Post subject: |
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Anyone around ten years ago or so give or take a few would have heard/known about 'crazy Sue' (name changed for privacy) from England. She used to cross busy streets downtown and in Kangnam and start beating on the hoods of any cars/taxis with her umbrella that dared to come even within three feet of her person. She was the Rosa Parks of Korea - the decade. This woman was tall and very strong. She would routinely break in and steal taxis from young high school and college girls. If a taxi didn't start pulling over the minute she raised her hand, she would jump out in the middle of the road and swing her arms wildly, like an animal...
The taxi drivers feared her, the police didn't know what to do with her so they ignored her hoping she'd go away, we used to hear about her at all the parties. Hilarious stories, just can't remember them now.
My god, the Korean police probably laugh themselves silly telling and trading crazy waegook stories from the history logs in Itaewon alone. |
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ssuprnova
Joined: 17 Dec 2010
Location: Saigon
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| Chokse wrote: |
| Paddycakes wrote: |
| Now's there a Class Act... |
I've got no problem taking money from Koreans any way that I can.
Actually, it is no different than teaching if you think about it. Most of you work in schools, you show up, teach some lessons, and get paid for it.
This is basically the same. I let them hit me with their mirror (usually because they are in some huge hurry and can't take the time for me to walk through the crosswalk before they move on), I take their money, they pay me for hitting me or their insurance company pays me and raises their rates and voila, lesson taught and some extra money in my pocket for 5 minutes of my time.
Criticize me all you want, but I add several million won to my income each year by letting a few folding mirrors slap my arm. Trust me, it's a sweet supplemental income. |
This. The only way people will ever learn is by having to part with their hard-earned money. Getting upset/jumping into the gutter every time a car approaches will just make you one of the crazy waegookin. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Eglayzer wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Eglayzer wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| . All I am doing is asserting my rights. |
But what about ones responsibility to promote safe traffic overall? I'm sorry but a bicyclist going 10 mph below the speed limit down the middle of the lane is not promoting road safety or the smooth flow of traffic.
I agree there needs to be more bike lanes, but I disagree that the street is the safest place. The edge of the sidewalk is far safer for bicyclists, motorists, while presenting minimal risk to pedestrians.
I'm a bit prejudiced because back home my town really tried to give to cyclists and they'd just run with it. Obnoxious behavior like taking up the middle of a lane in a 45mph zone. Being in the middle of the lane with their toddler in one of those bike-attached toddler carriers in a 45mph zone. It really made me question what was going on in their minds. To say nothing of the ajosshi-style hiking deckout, only in this case its bike clothes. Sorry dude, you aren't Lance Armstrong and you look like a goof.
| Quote: |
| When was the last time you rode a bicycle? |
One of the recent times I rode a bicycle some other cyclist gave me crap because I went at a leisurely pace, had a basket, and didn't have my rear in the air. I was just going from point A to point B to pick something from the store. Sorry I wasn't clad in Spandex and sweating buckets. Again, prejudiced me against the cycling crowd.
I'm more ranting in this thread than really advocating a position. My official position is that I endorse more bike lanes and that cycling is a green way to travel.
But man some cyclists out there have issues....(and so do I judging by this rant) |
Oh were to begin....
Bicycle lanes have been shown to be far less safe than road cycling. Bike lanes are no the answer. Roads are not for cars. Roads are for people, the public, to use. They are a public space like many others. Everyone is allowed to use them.
|
Look, I'll support sharing the road if the cyclists can drop this "roads aren't for cars" anti-common sense nonsense. Roads are primarily for cars and also for bikes and people. They are designed with cars in mind. It's like saying an AK is a hunting tool. Sure, kinda, but not really.
Sooner or later bicyclists will take this theory to the extreme and then the driving public will legislate their excesses out of existence. Business moves through cars, not bicycles. If deliveries are taking longer because bicyclists try to take over the roads things will break down.
It will be an ignorant backlash against bicyclists like the smoking bans or something. A failure of compromise.
It doesn't help that many cyclists and pedestrians ignore the law as well. How many cyclists signal properly? I would not say a majority do. What about jaywalking pedestrians?
The reason the car is the villain is because it is "big" and comes across as a bully. Objectively however cyclists and pedestrians are just as much a factor in bad road behavior. Here and back home. I mean one talks about the Korean disrespect for pedestrians, but I imagine if we mostly drove instead of walked, we'd be cursing Korean pedestrians with their lack of attention, cell-phone preoccupation, jaywalking, and drunken stumbling.
| Quote: |
| The sidewalk is the LEAST safe place for a bicycle to be. There are countless studies that prove this and all you need to do is google it. Most car/bike accidents happen because the driver of the vehicle "didn't see" the bicyclist until it was too late. |
I think the sidewalk would lead to more accidents. I think it would also reduce fatalities. I'd imagine that most of these accidents involve a car making a turn and clipping a cyclist as they cross a street or alley. As such they are going at a much slower speed than a road accident. Broken bones maybe, but small chance of death.
Now cyclists biking down the middle of a 45mph zone....
| Quote: |
| I am guessing that the reason I have gotten hit so much is because I have a strong belief as to my rights to the road/sidewalk as both a pedestrian and a cyclist. When I first arrived in Seoul I used to duck and cover whenever a car got too close to me, and I would run to the gutter. I am over that. Now I stand my ground. I think the reason I keep getting hit is that now I stand my ground virtually every time and drivers expect that, if they get REALLY close to you with their cars, then you will move for them. Not me, I would rather them bang their side mirrors. |
Well then time to make the big bucks...have a trailer and have them record the incident and get a nice white envelope.
At the same time the way life works is that people work around each other. Yes you shouldn't have to move, but neither should they.
It's like smoking- I should be able to smoke in a place if the owner says so. At the same-time people have the right not to be exposed to carcinogens. The way to deal with this is compromise, not drawing lines in the sand. |
Most of this is stupid, not in the least because I have now asked you five times to stay on topic.
Imagine if someone who drives a car once a year were to start telling other people, who drive every single day of their lives, how to do it. You have no idea what your talking about. Please educate yourself before trying to tell me what the safest way to ride a bike is. Go read ANY cycling manual and they will repeat exactly what I have said on this thread.
Again, you can read this link if you want to know every single reason why cyclists are safer on the road, and in the middle of the lane. However, I don't want that to become the subject of this thread.
http://bicyclesafe.com/ |
First off OP wrote about both bikes AND pedestrians so I am on topic.
Second, everything you have said is from the bicyclist's perspective.
would you be comfortable as a motorist riding behind some biker at 15 mph? Really? Really?
Even the most die-hard cyclist would admit that that is ridiculous if they were honest. |
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