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Eglayzer
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Gimhae-si, near Busan
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 Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| Thank you for getting back to topic. As I have said, I have no desire to talk about cycling with non-cyclists. Just FYI, and I am trying to be as polite as I can though I know it doesn't always seem that way, staying "as far to the right as practicable" can mean riding in the center of the road. |
It's Dave's. Your handling this thing with class, don't worry.
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| You have cited that riding in the center of the road may make you more likely to get rear ended but actually this type of accident is the very least common, statically. In my experience and that of countless other riders who I ride with, riding in the center of the lane will make you more visible to passing motorist. Being a gutter bunny only makes drivers think that they can pass you at full speed when this is not the case. Riding the curb leaves a cyclist no place to more or bail out should a car pass too closely. |
Just from my experience as a motorist, I'd agree that riding in the middle is less likely to result in an accident, but as I said, if one happens, it is not going to be pretty.
As I said, if one sticks to the sidewalk, and stops/slows at alleyways and such and looks around, I doubt you'd end up in a fatal accident. That car is going 5-10mph, not 35.
Likewise with walking. Stomping along with an Ipod on and just walking in front of a sidestreet without checking may be legal, but it ain't smart. I mean, your the victim so its not your fault, but some things aren't worth being right about.
"Died of a Theory" is not a good tombstone. |
You might be surprised how many people get killed in accidents just like you are talking about. The thing is that drivers are looking for objects moving at a walking speed on the side walks. They turn their heads left then look right and go. If you are moving at the speed of a bike, 10-15 mph EASILY, then thats where stuff gets into trouble.
Another interesting statistic is that more people are killed WALKING on sidewalks than by people CYCLING in the streets. The truth is, that it doesn't take much to kill a person, at least not when 4,000 pounds of metal is involved. Helmets do little to mitigate this damage because they are only designed to prevent minor falls, not cars. Most cyclists die in cross walks. Its a fact. Most pedestrians too. With that in mind, the absolute best thing to do is to avoid an accident all together by riding assertively, but cautiously in the street when you will be seen.
As an aside, pedestrians should not be penalized for drivers mad manners. Just because drivers are rude and aggressive does not mean that pedestrians should have to deal with cyclists on their sidewalks. The actual relative difference in speed between a cyclists and pedestrian is greater than that of a typical cyclist and car. Throw in ajumas who dont look where they are going, shops that take of the sidewalks with their wares, food stalls, running children, ect... and sidewalk cycling is far less ideal than the road. I promise. Watch the video I posted above and tell me that what he is doing does not look safe and effective. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Standing your ground whilst walking in the road (even if there's no sidewalk) just isn't wise. How much do you weigh? How much does even a small car weigh? Add momentum. It's a losing game. Unless you want to get clipped or more seriously injured, just keep your wits and move out of the way. Is it right? No. Is it a good way to keep from going to the hospital? (Trust me you don't want to be an in patient at a Korean hospital!) Yes. |
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Eglayzer
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Gimhae-si, near Busan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
| Standing your ground whilst walking in the road (even if there's no sidewalk) just isn't wise. How much do you weigh? How much does even a small car weigh? Add momentum. It's a losing game. Unless you want to get clipped or more seriously injured, just keep your wits and move out of the way. Is it right? No. Is it a good way to keep from going to the hospital? (Trust me you don't want to be an in patient at a Korean hospital!) Yes. |
Excellent points all around. However, again, I am not talking about actually getting "hit" by a car in the common usage of the phrase. I am talking about allowing the car to fold its side mirror in against my right arm, to make it very clear. I am not playing chicken or challenging cars head on. However, if a car is trying to slowly squeeze or force its way past me when there is clearly not enough room for it, I am not going to move and will allow his car to become damaged. Maybe I can even start wearing metal wrist cuffs on my dress shirts to aid this? :O (I'm kidding) |
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Eglayzer
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Gimhae-si, near Busan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I may not know much about cycling technique, but you seem to be fairly ignorant of the dangers bicycles pose to motorists. Inconsistency in speed causes a lot of traffic accidents.
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Please show me any link to any news story about a cyclists actually causing the death of a car driver. For every 1 you show me, if its even possible to find one, I will show you hundreds if not thousands of examples of cars clearly causing the death of cyclists.
Incosistency in speed does not cause traffic accidents. Most accidents are between two cars traveling at similar speeds. How many accidents to the public buses get into that are going much slower and stopping more frequently than cars? Hardly any, buses are much safer than cars both is accident frequency and safety. Cars are required to observe the road conditions, like the presence of other drivers, rain, cyclists, snow, buses, horse drawn carriages, ect... in the road. What causes most accidents is the drivers inability to control their vehicle in the face of ever changing and often underestimated road conditions. In other words, driving to fast for the given conditions.
An example, with the recent snow storms in the Eastern US several, I think 30-50 people have been killed and the blame from society (at least the news reporters) has been on the blizzard. "This blizzard is terrible, it has killed 45 people!" However, on further investigation virtually all of the deaths were due to traffic accidents blamed on the weather. Those are not accidents. People were driving in a way not suitable to the road conditions. Happens all the time. The definition of an "accident" is something that happens unintentionally. Sure, you didn't mean to cream that cyclists, or hit that patch of ice, but its your responsibility to operate your car safely in these conditions and you failed. Just like a drunk driver does not have an accident, its his fault for being drunk. Same with cell phone drivers who make a conscious decision to break the law and become distracted., |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Egg,
Step out of the way.
There -- solved your "problem" in five words...oh wait, that isn't your problem...your problem is that you don't WANT to step out of the way.
People here have granted that you are right -- you are right, cars SHOULD avoid you, but they don't, so step out of the way.
People shouldn't steal, but they do, so lock your doors when you leave the house. If you leave your house unlocked when you are out, and your house is robbed multiple times, I would suggest that you start locking your doors. Probably, I would suggest it before you are even robbed once, but then, I am in the "better safe than sorry" crowd on this particular issue....
You would be right to claim that you shouldn't have to, that people should not steal, because stealing is wrong -- and you could even show links to many sites that present the laws about stealing things being illegal, and something that folks shouldn't do...but if you still refuse to lock your doors, I would say that the problem lies with you.
Step out of the way. Curse the idiot under your breath if you want, but since the solution is simple and controllable by you, then control it.
Last edited by thegadfly on Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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If it's going that slowly, then wear the metal wrist cuffs  |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Eglayzer wrote: |
Incosistency in speed does not cause traffic accidents. Most accidents are between two cars traveling at similar speeds. How many accidents to the public buses get into that are going much slower and stopping more frequently than cars? Hardly any, buses are much safer than cars both is accident frequency and safety.
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Are you serious? Have you ever driven in a state or town where some people like to drive 5mph below while others go 15mph above? That is way more dangerous than everyone going 10mph above.
Also, driving a bus is a wee bit different than a car. A bus driver is trained, operating in a professional capacity, drives the same route over and over, is not permitted to talk on the phone, is not talking to anyone, has only the dispatch radio, etc. etc.
Tanks have low traffic accident rates too, might not have anything to do with how fast they drive. |
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Eglayzer
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Gimhae-si, near Busan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
Egg,
Step out of the way.
There -- solved your "problem" in five words...oh wait, that isn't your problem...your problem is that you don't WANT to step out of the way.
People here have granted that you are right -- you are right, cars SHOULD avoid you, but they don't, so step out of the way.
People shouldn't steal, but they do, so lock your doors when you leave the house. If you leave your house unlocked when you are out, and your house is robbed multiple times, I would suggest that you start locking your doors. Probably, I would suggest it before you are even robbed once, but then, I am in the "better safe than sorry" crowd on this particular issue....
You would be right to claim that you shouldn't have to, that people should not steal, because stealing is wrong -- and you could even show links to many sites that present the laws about stealing things being illegal, and something that folks shouldn't do...but if you still refuse to lock your doors, I would say that the problem lies with you.
Step out of the way. Curse the idiot under your breath if you want, but since the solution is simple and controllable by you, then control it. |
The difference between leaving your door unlocked to have your house broken into multiple times and my situation is that, having your house broken into causes a problem. If a car bumps me with their mirror it doesn't hurt me in the least. If letting someone break into your house a bunch of times makes you lose money and has a detrimental effect. Letting people, allow themselves, to bump me with their car only damages their car an potentially, but not probably, teaches them a lesson (dont get so close to pedestrians). As I have said, if it were to look like I could be injured I would of course move, this was never in debate. |
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Eglayzer
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Gimhae-si, near Busan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Eglayzer wrote: |
Incosistency in speed does not cause traffic accidents. Most accidents are between two cars traveling at similar speeds. How many accidents to the public buses get into that are going much slower and stopping more frequently than cars? Hardly any, buses are much safer than cars both is accident frequency and safety.
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Are you serious? Have you ever driven in a state or town where some people like to drive 5mph below while others go 15mph above? That is way more dangerous than everyone going 10mph above.
Also, driving a bus is a wee bit different than a car. A bus driver is trained, operating in a professional capacity, drives the same route over and over, is not permitted to talk on the phone, is not talking to anyone, has only the dispatch radio, etc. etc.
Tanks have low traffic accident rates too, might not have anything to do with how fast they drive. |
So if there were an accident you would blame the one person driving under the SPEED LIMIT while letting the other two people driving over the SPEED LIMIT off the hook? I think you should reconsider what you are implying. Since you seem to be interested in this stuff I highly recommend the book "Traffic." Its a bit thick and overly factual but the writer does a good job of making all the research findings interesting to read about. Lots of fun stuff in there about driving culture too.
http://www.amazon.com/Traffic-Drive-What-Says-About/dp/0307264785
In your second paragraph you say that buses, slower than the rest of traffic which you claim to be the cause of many accidents, dont get into accidents at the rate of a cyclist in the road because the bus drivers are highly trained. I dont see what that has to do with other cars not crashing into them but I'll run with it. It follows then that a driver of any vehicle, that does not comply with your ideal of everyone going the exact same speed, that is driven by a person of extensive training is somehow immune to the mistakes of the mouth breathing, motoring public. I would submit that I have spent far more time reading, researching, practicing, and driving, my bicycle than virtually every driver on the road. How then is me riding my bike on the road dangerous? As I said, i disagree with your original argument that differentials in speed are what cause accidents. Bad drivers who did no properly learn to share the road do. Since we are getting into the nitty gritty I would love to see any link you can muster than has found cause for your claim. I can find several for my own, as well as for the book that I linked earlier.
Tanks have low traffic accident rates because they are few in number (none) on our roads, unless you count SUVs. People on pogo sticks have very low accident rates on our roads as well, for the very same reason. |
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Eglayzer
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Gimhae-si, near Busan
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry for multi-posting but here is an excellent quote from a Q&A with Tom Vander Bilt, an expert.
Q: You seem to feel pretty strongly about what constitutes an "accident" on the road. While drugs and alcohol are called out as criminal, cell phone use, texting and general disregard for traffic laws are not. Do you think we are heading toward stricter laws on this front? Should we?
A: Since the car was invented, drivers have been reluctant to give up what they see as their "rights," even as these supposed rights keep changing. This is why, for example, cars are sold without "speed governors," a device that would greatly reduce, if not eliminate, the illegal � let�s call it what it is � act of speeding, and certainly reduce fatalities and injuries. It took years for people to accept that drinking and then getting behind the wheel was not a good idea, and obviously many still do think it�s acceptable. As the science emerges that cell phone conversations, not simply dialing, can seriously impair a driver�s attention and reaction times, the very reasons we criminalize drunken driving, I�m not sure what the distinction is that should be made if a driver kills a pedestrian while drunk versus while on their cell phone, or for that matter who kills a pedestrian because they were driving 25 miles over the speed limit. Does one get years in jail and the other a slap on the wrist? Don�t they both show an equal disregard for the law? People are leery of imposing stricter laws on negligent driving because it�s always been viewed as a "folk crime," like fudging your taxes, sort of widespread and not as serious as others. People are reluctant to criminalize what they see as "normal" behavior. But how did it become normal behavior? When I got my driver�s license, the cell phone hadn�t been invented, and somehow as a society we managed to get along. The economy didn�t collapse, and, if you believe surveys, people were no less happy then they are now. No one wants to get into an accident, they�re certainly not premeditated, but were people doing everything they reasonably could to avoid an "accidental" crash when it later turns out they were talking on a cell phone while driving? It�s something we�re going to have wrestle with as a society as the science really begins to come in. |
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:02 am Post subject: |
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Someone once said on these forums that Koreans have the mentality that "In Korea, car is King".
BTW, have you ever heard of this guy?
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Cyclotouriste
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/thread.jspa?threadID=776884
Be everything as it may, this transcontinental, international cyclotouriste is navigating to locate a good companion for an extended bicycling tour. Good is defined as---female, healthy, cyclist, with a sense of bold adventure, and the willingness to be compatable on an extended world tour with yours truly.
Starting time is---not any time soon.
Route is---to be decided by those on tour---you and me.
Length of time is---to be decided.
I be fifty-three, healthy, six feet, 180 pounds, good looking but nothing to get all up in the air about, blond receding hair, green eyes, university grad., writer, teacher. Can work in exotic locations and have done so, easy to get along with, adventurous, survivor, world traveler. Have bicycled thirty thousand miles through nineteen countries---USA, Canada, Mexico, western Europe, eastern Europe, former Soviet Union, China, south Korea.
[email protected] |
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Eglayzer
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Gimhae-si, near Busan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:49 am Post subject: |
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No I have never heard of him. I frequent long distance, adventure cycling, and bicycle touring web sites fairly often though. Those sorts of adds are not all that uncommon. Especially for older retired guys who have retired and want to spend the rest of their days traveling by bike. Nothing wrong with looking for a companion in my opinion.
If you are interested in such websites I suggest www.crazyguyonabike.com where I have contributed quite a bit of writing to. You can read my most journal about my most recent trip across Korea here:
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/seoultoyeosu
Its still a work in progress and needs some editing and a conclusion though. |
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Eglayzer
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Gimhae-si, near Busan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Eglayzer wrote: |
No I have never heard of him. I frequent long distance, adventure cycling, and bicycle touring web sites fairly often though. Those sorts of adds are not all that uncommon. Especially for older retired guys who want to spend the rest of their days traveling by bike. Nothing wrong with looking for a companion in my opinion.
If you are interested in such websites I suggest www.crazyguyonabike.com where I have contributed quite a bit of writing. Although, no personal adds like the one you posted. You can read my journal about my most recent trip across Korea here:
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/seoultoyeosu
Its still a work in progress and needs some editing and a conclusion though. |
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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:53 am Post subject: |
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the OP's question wasn't never answered.
I'd say anyone who gets hit by cars A LOT isn't "here".
they're probably 6 feet under.
or undergoing physical rehabilitation problem somewhere for 6 hours a day.
This wouldn't even apply to getting hit "a lot".
Once will do. |
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Redcap
Joined: 03 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:24 am Post subject: |
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OP:
It seems you're determined to become a hood ornament for a Hyundai.
Getting clipped 3 times within a 24 hour span says something about how well your current strategy is working.
Something to consider: there's the possibility that you will either get struck by a vehicle traveling at a higher rate of speed than what has occurred in your previous incidents, or a distracted driver will hit you square on. Both scenarios will increase the likelihood and severity of injury.
Perhaps Chokse can recommend a good ambulance-chasing lawyer. I'd be shocked if he didn't have one on speed-dial. |
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