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conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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 Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| Okay. Give me one example of Korean or Chinese "manners" that would be useful to teach western kids. And by useful I mean you are somehow helping or not harming the benefactor of such manners. Asian manners all seem to stem from some superstition or people knowing their "proper" place. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| conrad2 wrote: |
| Okay. Give me one example of Korean or Chinese "manners" that would be useful to teach western kids. And by useful I mean you are somehow helping or not harming the benefactor of such manners. Asian manners all seem to stem from some superstition or people knowing their "proper" place. |
Not acting violent while drunk. Not harassing people for wearing pink. Not interrupting. Not carrying an air of entitlement. Not judging people on whether or not they speak English. Not assuming that your way is "right". Not treating the rest of the world as your spring break party land. Not advocating a culture of violence. Not thinking that its cool to have spent time in prison.
As for Korean manners to follow- listen to elders. Treat older people with respect. At least consider the needs of the group above your individual needs. Consider the fact that what your family thinks is right might be better. Be willing to pay for other people, not just break things down bit by bit. Try to be humble and self-effacing at first. Consider what makes the group happy and not just turn it into a winner takes all.
This is over-generalizing. But come on, Westerners aren't near as rude as Asians make them out to be, at the same time Asian politeness isn't the caricature that you're making it out to be.
Even if it were the case it would still be good form to consider cross-cultural standards of politeness.
Correct me if I'm wrong but politeness isn't based on "My culture's standards of politeness are good because of X, where as yours are less valid because of Y."
That is not polite. That is rude. Anyone who understands politeness would agree. |
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interestedinhanguk
Joined: 23 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I hope there is a reciprocal course in Eastern manners being promoted to American students.
Things like raise your hand to ask a question. Wait your turn before speaking. Cell Phone manners. At least act like a 6 year old when its 11PM on a Friday night. How to address people politely and proper body language. Respect towards age. Humility. |
I have to lol at that.
| northway wrote: |
And being pushed around in a busy subway is hardly being physically assaulted, please. |
It's not just in a busy subway. I been elbowed and shoved quite forcefully and unnecessarily on trains and buses that weren't crowded by people who frankly we too lazy to walk 1 foot around me.
| Steelrails wrote: |
Not assuming that your way is "right". |
Koreans never assume their way is the "right" way.
| Steelrails wrote: |
At least consider the needs of the group above your individual needs. |
Individualism isn't about selfishness. It's about realizing the value of individuals (all individuals). When you start doing the group mentality thing, you not only ignore your personal needs, but you also ignore the personal needs of others. Being focused on the group isn't about being focused on all the members. It's about the concept of the group itself. Furthermore, anyone outside the group is trampled over. |
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conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| conrad2 wrote: |
| Okay. Give me one example of Korean or Chinese "manners" that would be useful to teach western kids. And by useful I mean you are somehow helping or not harming the benefactor of such manners. Asian manners all seem to stem from some superstition or people knowing their "proper" place. |
Not acting violent while drunk. Not harassing people for wearing pink. Not interrupting. Not carrying an air of entitlement. Not judging people on whether or not they speak English. Not assuming that your way is "right". Not treating the rest of the world as your spring break party land. Not advocating a culture of violence. Not thinking that its cool to have spent time in prison.
As for Korean manners to follow- listen to elders. Treat older people with respect. At least consider the needs of the group above your individual needs. Consider the fact that what your family thinks is right might be better. Be willing to pay for other people, not just break things down bit by bit. Try to be humble and self-effacing at first. Consider what makes the group happy and not just turn it into a winner takes all.
This is over-generalizing. But come on, Westerners aren't near as rude as Asians make them out to be, at the same time Asian politeness isn't the caricature that you're making it out to be.
Even if it were the case it would still be good form to consider cross-cultural standards of politeness.
Correct me if I'm wrong but politeness isn't based on "My culture's standards of politeness are good because of X, where as yours are less valid because of Y."
That is not polite. That is rude. Anyone who understands politeness would agree. |
It seems you don't know much about Korean behavior.
1. Violence- Gun violence and random street crime are a big problem in the US. Not really related to manners though. Anyway Korean parents and teachers are far more likely to use violence in disciplining their kids and Korean men are at least as likely (probably more likely) to beat on their women.
2. Ridiculed for wearing pink- doesnt happen in Korea because pink isnt considered gay. Yet Koreans are far more likely to ridicule your appearance to your face " you are fat, you are ugly, you look old, you have single fold eyelids, your boyfriend isnt handsome."
3. Interrupting- I dont know if Koreans interrupt each other much because Im not privy to their conversations and they are not likely to interrupt my English.
4.Judging people on English ability. Change English to Korean and ask a non Korean speaking Kyopo or other Asian looking people how they are treated by Koreans when they realize they can't speak Korean. Or better yet, how do Koreans react when a whitey is able to speak Korean: often in a ridiculous manner.
5. Every one assumes that their way is "right".
6.Spring break comment. Have you heard the stories about how Koreans act in SE Asia and on airplanes? Even Korean stewardesses hate dealing with their own.
7.Thinking its cool to spend time in prison. Not really related to manners now is it. Its just a personal opinion only held by degenerates. Not unlike the Korean belief that its a feather in your cap to rip someone off in a business deal.
You seem to be confusing cultural traits and national weaknesses with "manners". Considering what your family thinks is right, considering what the group wants, oldest guy in the group paying the food bill are all cultural traits and have nothing to do with manners. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Funnily enough, the article doesn't actually say this program of manners is all based on western manners...everyone seems to be assuming it is. Japan's sense of decorum (not a recently developed phenomenon in response to seeing how well-behaved westerners are) far exceeds what's practiced in the west to the point of appearing exaggerated and ridiculous. Japan's model of decorum was essentially based on the Chinese model as witnessed in the imperial court by Japanese envoys (naturally how things were carrried out in the court were a bit different from what was played out in the streets). Other countries have their own systems of decorum as well. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| conrad2 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| conrad2 wrote: |
| Okay. Give me one example of Korean or Chinese "manners" that would be useful to teach western kids. And by useful I mean you are somehow helping or not harming the benefactor of such manners. Asian manners all seem to stem from some superstition or people knowing their "proper" place. |
Not acting violent while drunk. Not harassing people for wearing pink. Not interrupting. Not carrying an air of entitlement. Not judging people on whether or not they speak English. Not assuming that your way is "right". Not treating the rest of the world as your spring break party land. Not advocating a culture of violence. Not thinking that its cool to have spent time in prison.
As for Korean manners to follow- listen to elders. Treat older people with respect. At least consider the needs of the group above your individual needs. Consider the fact that what your family thinks is right might be better. Be willing to pay for other people, not just break things down bit by bit. Try to be humble and self-effacing at first. Consider what makes the group happy and not just turn it into a winner takes all.
This is over-generalizing. But come on, Westerners aren't near as rude as Asians make them out to be, at the same time Asian politeness isn't the caricature that you're making it out to be.
Even if it were the case it would still be good form to consider cross-cultural standards of politeness.
Correct me if I'm wrong but politeness isn't based on "My culture's standards of politeness are good because of X, where as yours are less valid because of Y."
That is not polite. That is rude. Anyone who understands politeness would agree. |
It seems you don't know much about Korean behavior.
1. Violence- Gun violence and random street crime are a big problem in the US. Not really related to manners though. Anyway Korean parents and teachers are far more likely to use violence in disciplining their kids and Korean men are at least as likely (probably more likely) to beat on their women.
2. Ridiculed for wearing pink- doesnt happen in Korea because pink isnt considered gay. Yet Koreans are far more likely to ridicule your appearance to your face " you are fat, you are ugly, you look old, you have single fold eyelids, your boyfriend isnt handsome."
3. Interrupting- I dont know if Koreans interrupt each other much because Im not privy to their conversations and they are not likely to interrupt my English.
4.Judging people on English ability. Change English to Korean and ask a non Korean speaking Kyopo or other Asian looking people how they are treated by Koreans when they realize they can't speak Korean. Or better yet, how do Koreans react when a whitey is able to speak Korean: often in a ridiculous manner.
5. Every one assumes that their way is "right".
6.Spring break comment. Have you heard the stories about how Koreans act in SE Asia and on airplanes? Even Korean stewardesses hate dealing with their own.
7.Thinking its cool to spend time in prison. Not really related to manners now is it. Its just a personal opinion only held by degenerates. Not unlike the Korean belief that its a feather in your cap to rip someone off in a business deal.
You seem to be confusing cultural traits and national weaknesses with "manners". Considering what your family thinks is right, considering what the group wants, oldest guy in the group paying the food bill are all cultural traits and have nothing to do with manners. |
So you agree that its pretty rude for Koreans to assume their way is right and to try and force their standards on you and its pretty rude for them to look down on you if you don't meet their petty standards.
Then you can see how the assumption that the world should conform to western politeness is rude.
As I said, I'm all for international manners classes, which include western manners, but not only western manners. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| legrande wrote: |
| Funnily enough, the article doesn't actually say this program of manners is all based on western manners...everyone seems to be assuming it is. Japan's sense of decorum (not a recently developed phenomenon in response to seeing how well-behaved westerners are) far exceeds what's practiced in the west to the point of appearing exaggerated and ridiculous. Japan's model of decorum was essentially based on the Chinese model as witnessed in the imperial court by Japanese envoys (naturally how things were carrried out in the court were a bit different from what was played out in the streets). Other countries have their own systems of decorum as well. |
I took the discussion of the pre-Olympic manners push to suggest that it was somewhat Western specific. |
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Triban
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Location: Suwon Station
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| conrad2 wrote: |
Sticking your chopsticks in your bowl of rice, for example, or using them as a stabbing tool? |
Sticking in a bowl of rice is rude. Stabbing is not.
Koreans do it ALL THE TIME.
Also, Korean students are by far worse than I or my peers ever would dream of being in grade school. We got the **** beat out of us if we misbehaved. Elementary kids bring CELLPHONES to CLASS and act like idiots. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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yeah big LOL at Koreans having good cellphone manners
i worked at a Korean corporation, they answer their cellphones during meetings and teleconferences when someone is in the middle of talking to them.
and if you leave your cellphone on your desk when you're away from your desk for a bathroom break or something, they will answer it for you to say that you're not available right now. WTF? apparently they get really mad when someone doesn't answer their cell, and they never leave a voicemail. |
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Perceptioncheck
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:38 am Post subject: |
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Please forgive me if I'm moving into Captain Obvious territory here, but isn't arguing over what country has the best "manners" intrinsically a waste of time and effort?
Since manners depend on your conception of rude - and since different cultures have very different conceptions of rude - surely there can never really be any Definitive Set Of Manners.
Take, for example, the cellphone thing; in Korea, perhaps it's not rude to take a call in the middle of a conversation, wheras speaking in an obnoxiously loud voice in the middle of, say, a crowded bookstore is.
The very great number of obnoxiously loud westerners I've come across in crowded bookstores are never going to measure up to this Korean idea of cellphone manners. But are they rude? A Korean might say yes, and a Westerner might say no.
Unless you're me, in which case you would also say yes.
At the end of the day, who's right? Er, everybody, I guess, if your cup is half full. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| Perceptioncheck wrote: |
Please forgive me if I'm moving into Captain Obvious territory here, but isn't arguing over what country has the best "manners" intrinsically a waste of time and effort?
Since manners depend on your conception of rude - and since different cultures have very different conceptions of rude - surely there can never really be any Definitive Set Of Manners.
Take, for example, the cellphone thing; in Korea, perhaps it's not rude to take a call in the middle of a conversation, wheras speaking in an obnoxiously loud voice in the middle of, say, a crowded bookstore is.
The very great number of obnoxiously loud westerners I've come across in crowded bookstores are never going to measure up to this Korean idea of cellphone manners. But are they rude? A Korean might say yes, and a Westerner might say no.
Unless you're me, in which case you would also say yes.
At the end of the day, who's right? Er, everybody, I guess, if your cup is half full. |
Obviously both behaviors are rude. What is your point? That we should all be cultural relativists? |
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Perceptioncheck
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| redaxe wrote: |
| Perceptioncheck wrote: |
Please forgive me if I'm moving into Captain Obvious territory here, but isn't arguing over what country has the best "manners" intrinsically a waste of time and effort?
Since manners depend on your conception of rude - and since different cultures have very different conceptions of rude - surely there can never really be any Definitive Set Of Manners.
Take, for example, the cellphone thing; in Korea, perhaps it's not rude to take a call in the middle of a conversation, wheras speaking in an obnoxiously loud voice in the middle of, say, a crowded bookstore is.
The very great number of obnoxiously loud westerners I've come across in crowded bookstores are never going to measure up to this Korean idea of cellphone manners. But are they rude? A Korean might say yes, and a Westerner might say no.
Unless you're me, in which case you would also say yes.
At the end of the day, who's right? Er, everybody, I guess, if your cup is half full. |
Obviously both behaviors are rude. What is your point? That we should all be cultural relativists? |
Really? If I was an alien who had just landed in a random bookstore or subway carriage and knew nothing about human manners, I would assume that in the west, talking obnoxiusly loudly on a phone was a-ok. Particularly in North America.
But hey, perhaps we should throw cultural relativism to the wind. And why not? My country, with its burgeoning unemployment rate, and its gang problem, and all its binge drinking, it number one! Yay! And we manage to be the most polite (by our standards)! We're number one! Hooray!
Right, I'm off to have a celebatory bender, and throw up in someones fishtank. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:24 am Post subject: |
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This is amusing.
Neither culture is all good or all bad yet some are agruing it that way.
Also, just because someone highlights the bad points of your culture, you should not rise up and start send bash comments the other way.
I completely agree with one of the very first posts in this thread: the course is interesting but is too western-centric and needs to be more culturally varied.
Also, the concept of rude as it is being used in this thread is far too black and white. In fact, rudeness or perceived rudeness is highly charged by culture and this is quite evident based on some of the responses in here.
Westerners and Koreans have manners, neither group has the monopoly on rudeness or politeness. |
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conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| My problem with rudeness in Korea isnt of the cultural difference variety. What pisses me off is that Koreans know that pushing and body checking people, cutting in line, and motorcyclists whizzing by pedestrians on the sidewalk are wrong, yet people still do these things frequently because they are rarely called on it. Just a giant national shoulder shrug. |
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Lastrova
Joined: 30 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
I'm not Korean (I'm white), but honestly, I don't see nearly as many Western families taking in their elderly relatives. Moreover, it's remarkably common for Western kids to act like punks to their parents. Korean kids? Much less common.
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Many of the elderly in the west want their independence. They don't want to live with their children. They feel like a burden. That's cultural as well. But many of the children do visit often and do take care of them. And this trend is accelerating in the East as well. In fact, a great film, Tokyo Story, focused on this issue way back in the early 1950's. What is a punk kid? |
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