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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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 Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| nero wrote: |
Until America embraces diversity; until it provides basic services for its citizens; until it ceases to cater to religious bigots...then the violence rate will keep increasing.
I know a lot of other countries (including my own) are exceptionally violent. I feel far safer in my country knowing very few people have guns. When guns are in the hands of people, 'accidents' easily happen.
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I don't think we can blame a lack of tax-based public services for violence any more than we can blame guns themselves. There are plenty of examples of countries with lots of public services as well as few guns which have a lot of violence. The article I referenced didn't include successful intentional homicide (which is likely higher in the U.S.), but provides a good cross-section of violent crime in a high-service, low-gun society.
My point here isn't that your country should increase gun ownership, just that the U.S. gun laws are justified for our culture ^_^
| nero wrote: |
Just so you know the public health implications of your having a gun in your house for protection:
You are at least 10 times more likely to die from a gun than I am (I have no guns in my home), if you have children they are some 20 times more likely to die from a gun than children without a gun in their home.
Just what are you protecting? I suggest your perception of what you need to do to protect yourself is based on a false sense of security or insecurity. It is not 1827, and you do not live in a community without law or inforcement. |
I don't know the statistics, but I wouldn't argue with these estimations. However, how much more likely are you or your descendants to live under an oppressive government? How much more of a deterrent to violent crime does my home have, being located in an area where civilian gun ownership is common? These things are far harder to calculate.
In the end, I believe it should be the choice of the individual as to which is the greater risk. The founders of the U.S. and the majority of the current population agree. For me, the statistical risks of gun ownership (mitigated by proper responsibility) are outweighed by benefits such as those above. |
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nero
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| nero wrote: |
Until America embraces diversity; until it provides basic services for its citizens; until it ceases to cater to religious bigots...then the violence rate will keep increasing.
I know a lot of other countries (including my own) are exceptionally violent. I feel far safer in my country knowing very few people have guns. When guns are in the hands of people, 'accidents' easily happen.
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I don't think we can blame a lack of tax-based public services for violence any more than we can blame guns themselves. There are plenty of examples of countries with lots of public services as well as few guns which have a lot of violence. The article I referenced didn't include successful intentional homicide (which is likely higher in the U.S.), but provides a good cross-section of violent crime in a high-service, low-gun society.
My point here isn't that your country should increase gun ownership, just that the U.S. gun laws are justified for our culture ^_^
| nero wrote: |
Just so you know the public health implications of your having a gun in your house for protection:
You are at least 10 times more likely to die from a gun than I am (I have no guns in my home), if you have children they are some 20 times more likely to die from a gun than children without a gun in their home.
Just what are you protecting? I suggest your perception of what you need to do to protect yourself is based on a false sense of security or insecurity. It is not 1827, and you do not live in a community without law or inforcement. |
I don't know the statistics, but I wouldn't argue with these estimations. However, how much more likely are you or your descendants to live under an oppressive government? How much more of a deterrent to violent crime does my home have, being located in an area where civilian gun ownership is common? These things are far harder to calculate.
In the end, I believe it should be the choice of the individual as to which is the greater risk. The founders of the U.S. and the majority of the current population agree. For me, the statistical risks of gun ownership (mitigated by proper responsibility) are outweighed by benefits such as those above. |
Americans seem to have a strange paranoid fear of the 'other' - if it's not the blacks, it's the jews...or the gays...or the Mexicans...
It's an 'us versus them' mentality stoked by fear mongers. Carrying a gun isn't 'freedom' it is living in fear. When you are so fearful you have to carry a gun I'd say you are in the least free place in the world. I'd almost go so far as to call it 'oppressive' ; )
If you are at all concerned about decreasing the number of deaths of humans in the US due to guns, then you need to pay attention to gun regulations.
Your country is singular in its appalling level of gun violence- more than 1 million deaths from guns (all cause- murder suicide) since 1968!! Not one country in the world from the 3rd world to the civilized world is close ruling out those in civil wars or wars in general. Needless to say, that one million is more than all war deaths in American history.
Willful ignorance and misapplication of the Bill of Rights literally is killing people in your country. The NRA's power is a profound evil. Guns in 1776 were not and are not even close to the rapid firing killing machines of 2011, and militias are not equivalent to individuals packing rapid firing weapons. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, right, tell that to the BNP. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| nero wrote: |
Americans seem to have a strange paranoid fear of the 'other' - if it's not the blacks, it's the jews...or the gays...or the Mexicans...
It's an 'us versus them' mentality stoked by fear mongers. Carrying a gun isn't 'freedom' it is living in fear. When you are so fearful you have to carry a gun I'd say you are in the least free place in the world. I'd almost go so far as to call it 'oppressive' ; ) |
The media has done an excellent job portraying Americans (particularly conservative Americans) as xenophobic and racist. However, the Americans I know and associate with consider people to be individuals. No one is more "other" than anyone else, that's what being American is (imo). But regardless of the source, violent crime will still occur. My advocacy of gun ownership isn't a reflection of fear (as I pointed out, one should fear robbery, burglary and rape more in the UK than in the US). Instead, it's due to a sense of personal responsibility for the protection of myself and others. Having as much training in firearms use and safety as most police officers I know, I couldn't forgive myself if I failed to protect innocent lives simply because I was unequipped to do so.[/quote]
| nero wrote: |
If you are at all concerned about decreasing the number of deaths of humans in the US due to guns, then you need to pay attention to gun regulations. |
I actually don't care what physical object or implement causes deaths, be it a gun, knife, or anything else. What I am concerned about is reducing the death of innocents, particularly those resulting from the intentional actions of others. Perhaps that's a biased view, but I consider accidental gun deaths to be a similar issue to accidental vehicular deaths. Owning a gun is a choice to take on a LOT of responsibility, as is driving a car. Neither of these is for everyone!
| nero wrote: |
Your country is singular in its appalling level of gun violence- more than 1 million deaths from guns (all cause- murder suicide) since 1968!! Not one country in the world from the 3rd world to the civilized world is close ruling out those in civil wars or wars in general. Needless to say, that one million is more than all war deaths in American history. |
Because really, any suicide that doesn't involve a gun is fine. Someone need to die? Make sure to use a knife! The fact that a gun was involved in a violent act does not mean that the absence of the gun would have prevented violence. As I've already posted, violence is common in countries irrespective of gun ownership rates. Accidents involving guns are regrettable, but are largely the choice and responsibility of the individual.
| nero wrote: |
Willful ignorance and misapplication of the Bill of Rights literally is killing people in your country. The NRA's power is a profound evil. Guns in 1776 were not and are not even close to the rapid firing killing machines of 2011, and militias are not equivalent to individuals packing rapid firing weapons. |
Fortunately, back in 1776 people had to load weapons with their own store of black powder, use poorly manufactured firearms, and died from most gunshot wounds due to primitive medicine. But I'm sure there were no accidents, and I'm sure most murderers were caught despite a lack of forensic science. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| nero wrote: |
Americans seem to have a strange paranoid fear of the 'other' - if it's not the blacks, it's the jews...or the gays...or the Mexicans...
It's an 'us versus them' mentality stoked by fear mongers. |
So you watched a Michael Moore propaganda film once, and you think you have an understanding about "Americans"? I suppose I could just throw such ridiculous generalizations right back in your Brit face, but that would be petty and ignorant.
That you actually even think there's such a thing as 'Americans in general', and that you know how 'they' truly think (given that you're not even an American yourself), is truly laughable.
| Quote: |
| Carrying a gun isn't 'freedom' it is living in fear. When you are so fearful you have to carry a gun I'd say you are in the least free place in the world. I'd almost go so far as to call it 'oppressive' ; ) |
Yeah, go tell that to that corrupt police and hired thugs that enforce the tyrannical laws enacted by our criminal government.
| Quote: |
| If you are at all concerned about decreasing the number of deaths of humans in the US due to guns, then you need to pay attention to gun regulations. |
Yes. Deregulation brings about more gun ownership, which leads to less crime. The lion's share of gun murders in the US occur in cities with gun bans, such as Washington DC. This is because in these places only criminals and police have guns.
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| Your country is singular in its appalling level of gun violence- more than 1 million deaths from guns (all cause- murder suicide) since 1968!! Not one country in the world from the 3rd world to the civilized world is close ruling out those in civil wars or wars in general. Needless to say, that one million is more than all war deaths in American history. |
What utterly skewed, meaningless drivel. Deaths from guns "all cause"?  What does that even mean? How many of those deaths were caused by policemen? How many in legitimate self defense? How many caused by criminals (who will have guns whether legal or not) shooting unarmed people?
| Quote: |
| Willful ignorance and misapplication of the Bill of Rights literally is killing people in your country. The NRA's power is a profound evil. Guns in 1776 were not and are not even close to the rapid firing killing machines of 2011, and militias are not equivalent to individuals packing rapid firing weapons. |
Right. So I guess we need to just let our government interpret the Bill of Rights as they, and their boot-licking supporters (such as yourself), see fit. Never mind that the single biggest cause of mass-death and atrocity in human history has consistently been big government (including democratic ones).
Anyway, to clarify your position: only criminals and 'police' (incl. hired IRS thugs dressed in black) should have access to such weapons. The rest of us, the swinish collective, should just roll over like a big fat hog and let the wolves have their way with us. Thanks for sharing your 'opinion', but you can keep it. Americans know what's best for them, better than you do. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| comm wrote: |
| The reality is that there isn't a massive difference between the number of people being intentionally killed in the U.S. or the UK. The difference is that the English have to pray to their government for protection from criminals and pray to their god for protection from their government. Americans have the right to empower themselves against either. |
You have the means to shoot congresspersons who tick you off. But why do you always shoot the wrong ones? |
The use of the plural 'you' here is incredibly offensive.
Let me guess, you are a Brit. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| nero wrote: |
| Until America embraces diversity; until it provides basic services for its citizens; until it ceases to cater to religious bigots...then the violence rate will keep increasing. |
So which is it, is it the guns or just the depravity of American culture that makes our society violent?
Look, watching a Michael Moore movie does not make you an expert. Try watching The Wire, instead. Most of the gun-deaths in the United States involve criminals or are drug-related.
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In 1999 there were 1776 gun deaths in the 0 through 17 age group and 3385 gun deaths in the 0 through 19 age group. By subtraction we find that there were a whopping 1609 gun deaths in just the 18 through 19 age group. Historically the 18 through 24 age group is the highest crime-committing group. At age 18 part-time drug dealers leave school and become full-time drug dealers. Despite the propaganda from the gun control lobby, criminals in general and drug dealers in particular are the group of so-called children most likely to be shot by their fellow criminals. You can verify this by reading the local gun death news stories in any city newspaper. School shootings are so rare that every one gets national television coverage, but drug dealers are shot so often that they are barely mentioned in their local newspaper.
Older people's gun deaths are most likely to be suicides. Suicides typically make up 56.5% of all gun deaths according to the Bureau Of Justice Statistics. In fact, drugs and suicides account for more than 2 out of every 3 gun deaths in the USA.
The best way to prevent gun deaths is to treat depression and other mental illness, teach children not to sell or use illegal drugs, treat drug addiction, and have police concentrate on enforcing drug laws. However, the gun control lobby says that we should spend billions of dollars on gun registration and gun licensing instead of using the money to treat depression and combat drugs. Click here for some sensible ways to prevent gun violence.
The accidental gun death rate has been falling since 1930 and US accidental gun deaths per year were down to 824 by 1999 according to the CDC. |
In 2007, the accidental gun death rate was only 613 for a population of 300 million. |
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nero
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Well, as a New Zealander (that's not British, to those geographically challenged further up in the thread) who lived in New Orleans for 4 years (1998 - 2002) I was offering my thoughts. Sometimes it's nice to hear different opinion than your own, don't you think?
However, you are correct in your assertions that it is your country, not mine.
I agree that your government is corrupt, some of your police are inept and so on. However, I don't think an armed populace is the answer. Too many innocent people get killed. It's like cutting down a forest to catch a tiger.
I understand you want to protect yourselves, but don't you think a better bet would be to try to fix a system which leads to the problems which require the carrying of guns in the first place? Or is the US too far gone?
I truly think the founding fathers would be editing the second amendment the minute we dug them up if they could see what the idiot brigade made of it. |
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Space Bar
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| nero wrote: |
| If you are at all concerned about decreasing the number of deaths of humans in the US due to guns, then you need to pay attention to gun regulations. |
As famous American icon Archie Bunker once said,
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| Would ya prefer they were pushed outta windows? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Space Bar wrote: |
| nero wrote: |
| If you are at all concerned about decreasing the number of deaths of humans in the US due to guns, then you need to pay attention to gun regulations. |
As famous American icon Archie Bunker once said,
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| Would ya prefer they were pushed outta windows? |
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I know you were being a bit facetious, but I have to admit, if someone were trying to kill me, I'd rather they had to resort to trying to shove me out a window rather than simply being able to shoot me from across the room. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| nero wrote: |
| I agree that your government is corrupt, some of your police are inept and so on. However, I don't think an armed populace is the answer. Too many innocent people get killed. It's like cutting down a forest to catch a tiger. |
And what evidence is there that innocent people within an armed society are more likely to be murdered/assaulted than within a disarmed one? None. In fact, evidence points to the contrary (seeing as the greatest mass murders in history have always taken place in countries with disarmed citizenry).
| Quote: |
| I understand you want to protect yourselves, but don't you think a better bet would be to try to fix a system which leads to the problems which require the carrying of guns in the first place? Or is the US too far gone? |
Fix a system that is is becoming more and more corrupt by the day, and which imposes its control over the people at gunpoint? Please. The policies and direct actions of our own government are the main cause of crime (such as the CIA funding drug lords and shipping in drugs on record, while declaring a 'war on drugs' to keep profits high and as a pretext to clamp down on opposition and keep prisons full). The real danger is not law-abiding people being armed, it's a tyrannical government. The more corrupt the government becomes the more law and order break down as well. But never mind that: the next time you're being mugged or someone breaks into your home, perhaps you should just lecture them about "the system". See how far that gets you...
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| I truly think the founding fathers would be editing the second amendment the minute we dug them up if they could see what the idiot brigade made of it. |
Now you're pretending to have even a shred of insight into what the founding fathers "really" thought? Very funny. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:54 am Post subject: |
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I wish someone else were on your side in this thread Nero, I feel bad that a whole group is directly opposing you 
| nero wrote: |
I understand you want to protect yourselves, but don't you think a better bet would be to try to fix a system which leads to the problems which require the carrying of guns in the first place? Or is the US too far gone? |
The problem with that is that no system in history has ever stayed fixed. It will inevitably fall to a dictator, or a foreign power, or violent insurrection. The best chance for the rights of individuals to be preserved is for those individuals to be armed.
As for a system that "fixes" crime... There has always been crime and violence. Perhaps people aren't inherently evil, but some will always behave that way. If you can show me a society that has eliminated violent crime, I'll gladly advocate whatever systems are in place that are proven to effectively do so. Unfortunately for your argument, a lack of guns doesn't seem to help reduce violence.
| nero wrote: |
I truly think the founding fathers would be editing the second amendment the minute we dug them up if they could see what the idiot brigade made of it. |
So the well-documented advocacy for individual citizens to be armed would be reversed by... what?
Would they be appalled at how few regulations there are to prevent mentally ill individuals from owning guns? No, that wouldn't be it.
Would they be disgusted by how safe weapons are today, with no need to store volatile gunpowder in your home and vastly fewer accidents due to misuse of it? No, not that either.
Would they be horrified by the way that most people who are shot survive, unlike in 1776 when medicine was far more primitive? Nope, not that either.
Would the high rate at which gun murders are solved today due to forensic science push them over the edge? Nah, I think they'd be cool with that too.
Some people might hate guns and associate them with the "Wild West", but the Constitution wasn't exactly framed in the "Docile East". |
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Space Bar
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Space Bar wrote: |
| nero wrote: |
| If you are at all concerned about decreasing the number of deaths of humans in the US due to guns, then you need to pay attention to gun regulations. |
As famous American icon Archie Bunker once said,
| Quote: |
| Would ya prefer they were pushed outta windows? |
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I know you were being a bit facetious, but I have to admit, if someone were trying to kill me, I'd rather they had to resort to trying to shove me out a window rather than simply being able to shoot me from across the room. |
No, they are not trying to kill you, you WILL die. Now which would you prefer? If it were a high enough window where I'd die before I hit the ground, or at least got a few good seconds of free fall, that might be kinda cool (for a death, that is). |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| or at least got a few good seconds of sheer terror |
I think I'd rather take a well-aimed bullet. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Space Bar wrote: |
| No, they are not trying to kill you, you WILL die. Now which would you prefer? If it were a high enough window where I'd die before I hit the ground, or at least got a few good seconds of free fall, that might be kinda cool (for a death, that is). |
How about being carved up with a knife? That ranks very high on my list of most unpleasant ways of dying...
Obviously being shot in a limb would be agonizing, but I'd still prefer it to being stabbed. I'd also much rather take a bullet in the head than have my throat slit... |
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