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Lastrova
Joined: 30 Dec 2010
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 Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| conrad2 wrote: |
| My problem with rudeness in Korea isnt of the cultural difference variety. What pisses me off is that Koreans know that pushing and body checking people, cutting in line, and motorcyclists whizzing by pedestrians on the sidewalk are wrong, yet people still do these things frequently because they are rarely called on it. Just a giant national shoulder shrug. |
This is Korea. These characteristics are as traditional as kimchi. It is that fighting spirit incarnate. I don't like it as well. And a large part of it is passively accepted. The motorcyclists whizzing by have more to do with self-interest. Getting goodies from restaurants and department stores delivered to your door without added cost seduces many people. This also goes way back. Different mode of transportation, that's all. |
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Quack Addict
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| conrad2 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
I hope there is a reciprocal course in Eastern manners being promoted to American students.
Things like raise your hand to ask a question. Wait your turn before speaking. Cell Phone manners. At least act like a 6 year old when its 11PM on a Friday night. How to address people politely and proper body language. Respect towards age. Humility.
First and foremost is not assuming that Western=Civilized. That nonsense needs to stop.
I agree with these classes, but I object to the tone. Needs to be more cross-cultural and not so Western-centric. African, Slavic, Indian, Islamic and Latin sensibilities should be incorporated. |
If a western person fails to use Korean manners: pouring drinks with the wrong hand, handing things over with only one hand, not using the honorific case when adressing a superior, blowing your nose; there is no real damage to the person you slighted. Now if a Korean is rude to me by western standards, I get bumped and shoved, I get saliva on my shoes, I get doors slammed in my face, and I have to wait longer in line- that's real damage. |
That's an awfully myopic view of Korean manners. You fail to see any value whatsoever in cross-cultural exchange going the other way? Treatment of guests, for example? Respect for elders? Nothing at all?
Not to mention that if they're teaching table manners, foreigners' table manners in Korea can be really freaking rude. Sticking your chopsticks in your bowl of rice, for example, or using them as a stabbing tool? |
Oh the horror...the HORROR! |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| Lastrova wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
I'm not Korean (I'm white), but honestly, I don't see nearly as many Western families taking in their elderly relatives. Moreover, it's remarkably common for Western kids to act like punks to their parents. Korean kids? Much less common.
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Many of the elderly in the west want their independence. They don't want to live with their children. They feel like a burden. That's cultural as well. But many of the children do visit often and do take care of them. And this trend is accelerating in the East as well. In fact, a great film, Tokyo Story, focused on this issue way back in the early 1950's. What is a punk kid? |
"Tokyo Monogatari"- directed by Ozu, with one of my favorite actresses, Hara Setsuko. Yeah, Ozu was commenting on the impact that the displacement of traditional Japanese values was having on society, remember there was a film out last year about an old Korean farmer and his cow that seemed to be entering some related territory. Ozu's camera work was always a little too hyper and quick for me  |
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Lastrova
Joined: 30 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| legrande wrote: |
"Tokyo Monogatari"- directed by Ozu, with one of my favorite actresses, Hara Setsuko. Yeah, Ozu was commenting on the impact that the displacement of traditional Japanese values was having on society, remember there was a film out last year about an old Korean farmer and his cow that seemed to be entering some related territory. Ozu's camera work was always a little too hyper and quick for me |
Setsuko Hara was one of a kind. Yes, Ozu's hyperkinetic camera work is bound to get you feeling dizzy the first time around  Ozu's one of my favorite directors. I've seen most of his films--thanks to the Criterion Collection. And many detail the slow, but steady breakdown of time honored family traditions. Try Late Spring and Floating Weeds (both versions) when you get a chance. |
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chungbukdo
Joined: 22 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
Respect for elders? Nothing at all?
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Why should one respect elders?
One should respect all people worthy of respect regardless of age, and be just to all those who have proven themselves not worthy of respect. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| chungbukdo wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
Respect for elders? Nothing at all?
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Why should one respect elders?
One should respect all people worthy of respect regardless of age, and be just to all those who have proven themselves not worthy of respect. |
Spoken like a youngen. |
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chungbukdo
Joined: 22 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Spoken like a youngen. |
Spoken like someone who believes in justice. It is in my interest to live in a world where people apply the rules of justice appropriately. Where men are rewarded for their good character and punished for their bad actions. If I grant unearned respect to men not deserving of it, then who will I be serving to prop up and who will I be pushing down?
Believe me, when I'm old I will want only earned respect. Respect based on my character and not something irrelevant like my age or my race. And I will continue to judge men by the words they speak and the actions they take, not their accidents of birth. |
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Lastrova
Joined: 30 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| chungbukdo wrote: |
Why should one respect elders?
One should respect all people worthy of respect regardless of age, and be just to all those who have proven themselves not worthy of respect. |
Although I agree that respecting elders just because they've reached a lofty age in itself isn't good enough, it is, at least a signpost. The problem with respecting all people who are worthy of respect is getting into nebulous territory. How are we to assign respect when we really get to know few people to the degree that we can say with complete conviction: this person is worthy of respect; this person is not worthy of respect. We can't, so we need some kind of map. I prefer to look at the situation in the inverse. Elders who demand respect by virtue of their age and nothing else are showing an unthinking adherence to tradition. This is a knock against them, but only a knock.
My philosophy is simple: One should respect all people no matter what age because they come from the same cloth as myself with all their flaws and peccadilloes, but this respect can wither or grow depending on their behavior. |
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chungbukdo
Joined: 22 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Lastrova wrote: |
| The problem with respecting all people who are worthy of respect is getting into nebulous territory. How are we to assign respect when we really get to know few people to the degree that we can say with complete conviction: this person is worthy of respect; this person is not worthy of respect. We can't, so we need some kind of map. |
I disagree that we cannot judge people accurately or with varying degrees. We can treat people based on varying degrees of their character as their character becomes known to us.
How do you know you want someone to be a friend rather than an acquaintance? It is because they have proved themselves worthy to be your friend after you spent more time with them and liked the time you spent with them. If you hung out for a while with that person and decided he was a little weird, then maybe you would keep him at the level of acquaintance or even stop seeing him altogether.
My policy is to treat people with benevolence when they are strangers, and then adjust accordingly in response to their statements and actions over time. This policy of judging people by their character is certainly better than your policy of using a "map" which assigns respect based on age, an inessential characteristic when evaluating someone's character. You may as well use someone's race or their hair colour. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| I start with 100% (most of the time�sometimes it's obvious when someone's undeserving). People can only lose my respect. |
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Lastrova
Joined: 30 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| chungbukdo wrote: |
I disagree that we cannot judge people accurately or with varying degrees. We can treat people based on varying degrees of their character as their character becomes known to us.
How do you know you want someone to be a friend rather than an acquaintance? It is because they have proved themselves worthy to be your friend after you spent more time with them and liked the time you spent with them. If you hung out for a while with that person and decided he was a little weird, then maybe you would keep him at the level of acquaintance or even stop seeing him altogether.
My policy is to treat people with benevolence when they are strangers, and then adjust accordingly in response to their statements and actions over time. This policy of judging people by their character is certainly better than your policy of using a "map" which assigns respect based on age, an inessential characteristic when evaluating someone's character. You may as well use someone's race or their hair colour. |
Well, no. You're simplifying my words to the nth degree. I am acknowledging how first impressions are multileveled. I mentioned mapping as an initial signpost not a big, glaring neon light: This way to understand my character completely!
The obvious question is how you treat people before their characters become known to you. You make it sound so easy to discern someone's real nature. Your perspicacity must be awe-inspiring. But most people don't have that immediate insight. And I hope you don't either, because what you are writing sounds more like judgment than anything else. And judgmental people definitely take a knock in the respect department, which is ironic because that is exactly the same as what the old folks are doing. And treating people with benevolence--kindness--can be interpreted in many ways: compassion, pity, condescension, etc.
And what do you mean, "they proved themselves worthy to be my friend?" Again, sounds judgemental to me. Two knocks. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| chungbukdo wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Spoken like a youngen. |
Spoken like someone who believes in justice. It is in my interest to live in a world where people apply the rules of justice appropriately. Where men are rewarded for their good character and punished for their bad actions. If I grant unearned respect to men not deserving of it, then who will I be serving to prop up and who will I be pushing down?
Believe me, when I'm old I will want only earned respect. Respect based on my character and not something irrelevant like my age or my race. And I will continue to judge men by the words they speak and the actions they take, not their accidents of birth. |
Being nice and respectful to old people doesn't mean you forfeit justice.
First off, its a token of appreciation based on the idea that "you're someone's dad" and that deserves a bit of respect.
Second, I don't bring whatever chips I have on my soldier towards the previous generations into dealings with older people.
Third, Showing a certain deferential respect towards older people is one of the things that holds society together. Even people in jail are bemoaning the lack of respect that people are showing towards older inmates. When you have a "you're just the same as me" attitude towards older people, particularly in a predatory/unstable environment, that just makes things worse.
Fourth, its the idea that you know what? Older people have seen some things and know some things that us youngens don't. Sometimes their ways that seem "stupid" to us, actually make more sense once you grow in experience. It's like criticizing the General. It's very easy to do, up until you sit in that chair and have to make the calls.
Sometimes Grandmama, Father Roger, Nancy Reagan, and Andy Rooney have a point and you should listen to them.
What, defer to the young? 99% of people I've met under the age of 30 are blathering idiots who should still be in H.S. Okay, that's exaggerated, but its staggering, the different levels of intelligence, character, and composure between people under 35 and over 35. Something seriously went wrong in our generation....
Heck take preachers- listen to pastors under 25 and those over 50 and its night and day. Or opinion columnists, or TV analysts and broadcasters, writers, celebrities, politicians, lawyers, musicians, artists, poets, farmers, soldiers, on and on.
You listen to young people and you just can't take anything they say seriously these days. My grandmother didn't even go to College and she knew the works of Shakespeare, Greek and Roman Mythology, Gemstones and minerals, plants and horticulture, jewelry techniques, geography and currencies, Chinese dynasties. Find young people with masters degrees who know that stuff nowadays, much less HS grads.
Sure maybe 50 years ago it wouldn't make sense to defer to old age. These days..... |
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chungbukdo
Joined: 22 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Being nice and respectful to old people doesn't mean you forfeit justice. |
It does if you give unearned respect to someone simply because they are old, regardless of what you know their character to be.
| Quote: |
First off, its a token of appreciation based on the idea that "you're someone's dad" and that deserves a bit of respect.
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No, people's characters deserve respect. Some "Dads" are drunks who beat their wives and children. Some people who are not fathers are inventors, scientists, and geniuses that make our entire existence possible.
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| Third, Showing a certain deferential respect towards older people is one of the things that holds society together. |
No, what society needs more than ever is recognition of the good for being good and the evil for being evil. Condemn an old bad man and praise a young good one, if your evaluation of their character is correct.
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| Fourth, its the idea that you know what? Older people have seen some things and know some things that us youngens don't. |
They may or may not have, depending on whether they wasted their lives or not. A person, simply by the fact of being old, does not inherently possess wisdom or virtue. Do you know how many illiterate old people there are in Korea who learned nothing but to mop floors in their sorry 75 years of existence?
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| What, defer to the young? |
No, "defer" to evaluating every man by his character. Giving no man privilege because of his age or his race or hair colour or any other irrelevant factor. Next you'll be telling me to "defer to the whites."
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| 99% of people I've met under the age of 30 are blathering idiots who should still be in H.S. Okay, that's exaggerated, but its staggering, the different levels of intelligence, character, and composure between people under 35 and over 35. Something seriously went wrong in our generation.... |
You should evaluate them as individuals based on their character, and not tie any false causation to their age because of correlations. Men's characters are self-made. For instance, a black man can be a genius no matter how many other men of his race are fools. A young man can be wise no matter how many young men are ignorant. |
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chungbukdo
Joined: 22 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:40 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Lastrova"]
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| And what do you mean, "they proved themselves worthy to be my friend?" Again, sounds judgemental to me. Two knocks. |
Yes, in the act of judging someones character I am being judgmental. By definition.
When I say they proved themselves worthy of being my friend, it means that we had enough values in common that I can see at that point, where a friendship could develop. For example, in all of his dealings he was honest with me so far. He seems intelligent. From witnessing his interactions with other people, he was kind to them. He was funny, which is certainly a value in a friendship and one I judge to be a positive value.
Maybe I walk up to a pretty girl in a bar and we hit it off. There's some chemistry and we are both making each other laugh. I think "I can see myself going on a date with her" but do not think "I can see myself getting engaged with her" yet, obviously. We seem compatible, then she says something all of a sudden like, "Look at that n*gger over there acting like a fool." Since I am always judging someone, I take that statement into account as well. I judge that statement as too irrational and too much of an ideological barrier for someone to date. So I cancel the date. Anyway, the whole process consists of judgement, and the evaluation of everyone's character never stops. |
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Lastrova
Joined: 30 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| chungbukdo wrote: |
When I say they proved themselves worthy of being my friend, it means that we had enough values in common that I can see at that point, where a friendship could develop. For example, in all of his dealings he was honest with me so far. He seems intelligent. From witnessing his interactions with other people, he was kind to them. He was funny, which is certainly a value in a friendship and one I judge to be a positive value.
Maybe I walk up to a pretty girl in a bar and we hit it off. There's some chemistry and we are both making each other laugh. I think "I can see myself going on a date with her" but do not think "I can see myself getting engaged with her" yet, obviously. We seem compatible, then she says something all of a sudden like, "Look at that n*gger over there acting like a fool." Since I am always judging someone, I take that statement into account as well. I judge that statement as too irrational and too much of an ideological barrier for someone to date. So I cancel the date. Anyway, the whole process consists of judgement, and the evaluation of everyone's character never stops. |
The problem with judgment is in the balance. To judge someone means you are in a superior position where your judgment has unequivocal value. What I find in talking to many people is in their choice of vocabulary and how they define it. What too often happens is that they have a private vocabulary. That is, they seem to define a word according to their own idiosyncratic needs--whether the definition is commonly accepted doesn't seem to either matter or make an impact. To judge someone means you are from the outset on unequal terms. It is a subjective call and one that actually keeps you from learning more about another human being, one that limits your desire to learn how another mind, how another conscious mind sees the world. That, in fact, means that you learn less about the world than you could, less about your interlocutor than you could. Ultimately, it is self-limiting. And when the years pass and your mind compresses from an overwhelming belief in its internal consistency, you're left with an empty gaping hole, but you won't know what the hell it is. It is not to judge, but to understand. That is where it all begins. |
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