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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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 Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
| I would argue that they are not popular because they kill large numbers of muslims. If they were killing Christians, Hindus or Jews I don't think their popularity would be sinking. Notice that support for the fundamentalist policies remains quite high, just that they don't agree with the talibans implentation of the policy. |
A) The support for fundamentalist policies is quite high in the United States as well, just not Islamic fundamentalism. What we're talking about is a certain strain of fundamentalism, the kind that espouses violence. Again, nuance: it's possible to support fundamentalism while thinking that the Taliban goes way too far in it's fundamentalism.
B) In saying that Pakistani Muslims would support the killing of Christians, Hindus, and Jews, you are essentially saying that they support systematic murder. That's a pretty heavy claim. Do you have anything to back that up outside of speculation? |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:05 am Post subject: |
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What would you consider fundamentalist policy? I don't see many similiarities. When the american state kills people for blaspheming, I will cede that point.
As for B, yes it is speculation. But I would consider it likely. Here is why.
So support for Osama was pretty high till 2005, and then declined afterwords. Why? Thats when the taleban started to organize inside Pakistan and take on the army. So really, support for the madmen ended when he killed Pakistanis.
http://pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=20&country=166 |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| northway, you clearly have no idea what it is like to live in an Islamic country. I suspect you don't even know any of the theocratic laws that are enforced in the middle east today in the 21st century. If you only knew how messed up it is over there relavtive to the West you wouldn't be defending Islam for even a second. Out of all the religions, Islam is the most repressive, most violent and least compatible with our modern way of life. It's teaching are so dangerous it ought to be illegal to practice it in the West. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| @ recessiontime illegal? Thats a bit much. Every religion goes through this. After a bit it will mellow out. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
| Every religion goes through this. After a bit it will mellow out. |
Other religions however did not command their followers to subjugate and kill where necessary all non-believers, until the entire world is muslim.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/01/zayed-spencer-debate-did-muhammad-teach-warfare-against-and-subjugation-of-unbelievers.html
Muslims have been conscious of their duty throughout history- as they have gradually taken over country after country...usually by bloodshed and brutality.
Islam has not "mellowed out" since the year 632: there are no signs of it doing so. Quite the opposite, they're psyching themselves up for the final push to world domination. |
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hondaicivic
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Daegu, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| stilicho25 wrote: |
| Every religion goes through this. After a bit it will mellow out. |
Other religions however did not command their followers to subjugate and kill where necessary all non-believers, until the entire world is muslim.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/01/zayed-spencer-debate-did-muhammad-teach-warfare-against-and-subjugation-of-unbelievers.html
Muslims have been conscious of their duty throughout history- as they have gradually taken over country after country...usually by bloodshed and brutality.
Islam has not "mellowed out" since the year 632: there are no signs of it doing so. Quite the opposite, they're psyching themselves up for the final push to world domination. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_golden_age
^"Muslim artists and scientists, princes and laborers together made a unique culture that has directly and indirectly influenced societies on every continent."
"Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love, poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism."
"Religious freedom, though society was still controlled under Islamic values, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries. Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech"
"Muslim scientists laid the foundations for modern science, for their development of early scientific methods and an empirical, experimental and quantitative approach to scientific inquiry. Some scholars have referred to this period as a "Muslim scientific revolution"
- You should know your history before you open your mouth. It wasn't until they got sacked by the Mongols that they started turning inward. The final nail in the coffin was the fall of the ottoman empire and colonization by the Anglo/American empire. But yes, I understand what you're saying about Islam today being a threat. However, they were not always so. |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| hondaicivic wrote: |
| Junior wrote: |
| stilicho25 wrote: |
| Every religion goes through this. After a bit it will mellow out. |
Other religions however did not command their followers to subjugate and kill where necessary all non-believers, until the entire world is muslim.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/01/zayed-spencer-debate-did-muhammad-teach-warfare-against-and-subjugation-of-unbelievers.html
Muslims have been conscious of their duty throughout history- as they have gradually taken over country after country...usually by bloodshed and brutality.
Islam has not "mellowed out" since the year 632: there are no signs of it doing so. Quite the opposite, they're psyching themselves up for the final push to world domination. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_golden_age
^"Muslim artists and scientists, princes and laborers together made a unique culture that has directly and indirectly influenced societies on every continent."
"Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love, poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism."
"Religious freedom, though society was still controlled under Islamic values, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries. Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech"
"Muslim scientists laid the foundations for modern science, for their development of early scientific methods and an empirical, experimental and quantitative approach to scientific inquiry. Some scholars have referred to this period as a "Muslim scientific revolution"
- You should know your history before you open your mouth. It wasn't until they got sacked by the Mongols that they started turning inward. The final nail in the coffin was the fall of the ottoman empire and colonization by the Anglo/American empire. But yes, I understand what you're saying about Islam today being a threat. However, they were not always so. |
It just so happened that all the scientists in the middle east in that time were Muslim. Just like how in Europe all the scientists in the dark ages were Christian. That doesn't mean Islam get to take credit for anything. I also have to laugh at how you try to pass off Islam as the pioneers of free speech and religious freedom. You clearly are ignorant and brainwashed. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| hondaicivic wrote: |
| Junior wrote: |
| stilicho25 wrote: |
| Every religion goes through this. After a bit it will mellow out. |
Other religions however did not command their followers to subjugate and kill where necessary all non-believers, until the entire world is muslim.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/01/zayed-spencer-debate-did-muhammad-teach-warfare-against-and-subjugation-of-unbelievers.html
Muslims have been conscious of their duty throughout history- as they have gradually taken over country after country...usually by bloodshed and brutality.
Islam has not "mellowed out" since the year 632: there are no signs of it doing so. Quite the opposite, they're psyching themselves up for the final push to world domination. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_golden_age
^"Muslim artists and scientists, princes and laborers together made a unique culture that has directly and indirectly influenced societies on every continent."
"Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love, poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism."
"Religious freedom, though society was still controlled under Islamic values, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries. Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech"
"Muslim scientists laid the foundations for modern science, for their development of early scientific methods and an empirical, experimental and quantitative approach to scientific inquiry. Some scholars have referred to this period as a "Muslim scientific revolution"
- You should know your history before you open your mouth. It wasn't until they got sacked by the Mongols that they started turning inward. The final nail in the coffin was the fall of the ottoman empire and colonization by the Anglo/American empire. But yes, I understand what you're saying about Islam today being a threat. However, they were not always so. |
You shouldn't blame the Mongols for the Islamic decline. You should blame Al-Ghazali and the victory of occasionalism.
Occasionalism is a philosophical theory about causation which says that created substances cannot be efficient causes of events. Instead, all events are taken to be caused directly by God himself.
Why Science and Islam don't mix
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What does it mean for God to be "absolutely transcendent"? In the normative doctrine of the 11th-century Muslim sage Abu Hamid al-Ghazali, Allah does not limit himself by ordering the world through natural law, for natural laws would impinge on his absolute freedom of action.
There are no intermediate causes, in the sense of laws of nature. Mars traverses an ellipse around the sun not because God has instituted laws of motion that require Mars to traverse an ellipse, but because Allah at every instant directs the angular velocity of Mars. Today, Allah happens to feel like pushing Mars about in an ellipse; tomorrow he might just as well do figure-eights.
Allah is everywhere doing everything at all times. He sets the spin on every electron, measures the jump of every flea, the frequency of every sneeze. That notion of a god who accepts no limitation, not even the limit of laws of nature that he created, characterizes mainstream Muslim thought since the 11th century. |
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hondaicivic
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Daegu, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| recessiontime wrote: |
| hondaicivic wrote: |
| Junior wrote: |
| stilicho25 wrote: |
| Every religion goes through this. After a bit it will mellow out. |
Other religions however did not command their followers to subjugate and kill where necessary all non-believers, until the entire world is muslim.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/01/zayed-spencer-debate-did-muhammad-teach-warfare-against-and-subjugation-of-unbelievers.html
Muslims have been conscious of their duty throughout history- as they have gradually taken over country after country...usually by bloodshed and brutality.
Islam has not "mellowed out" since the year 632: there are no signs of it doing so. Quite the opposite, they're psyching themselves up for the final push to world domination. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_golden_age
^"Muslim artists and scientists, princes and laborers together made a unique culture that has directly and indirectly influenced societies on every continent."
"Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love, poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism."
"Religious freedom, though society was still controlled under Islamic values, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries. Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech"
"Muslim scientists laid the foundations for modern science, for their development of early scientific methods and an empirical, experimental and quantitative approach to scientific inquiry. Some scholars have referred to this period as a "Muslim scientific revolution"
- You should know your history before you open your mouth. It wasn't until they got sacked by the Mongols that they started turning inward. The final nail in the coffin was the fall of the ottoman empire and colonization by the Anglo/American empire. But yes, I understand what you're saying about Islam today being a threat. However, they were not always so. |
It just so happened that all the scientists in the middle east in that time were Muslim. Just like how in Europe all the scientists in the dark ages were Christian. That doesn't mean Islam get to take credit for anything. I also have to laugh at how you try to pass off Islam as the pioneers of free speech and religious freedom. You clearly are ignorant and brainwashed. |
I guess some people here got an F in their history class. Did you take the time to read the entire wikipedia article? I'm not an apologist for Islam today, I was only referring to their history and how they were at the Apex of their culture during the time when the Europeans were a bunch of rag-wearing barbarians. Did you also fail your algebra class as well?.....because if you didn't, you would know that algebra came from the Islamic world. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| hondaicivic wrote: |
| they were at the Apex of their culture |
Any reason why you chose the capital A?
(armchair psychologist at work....) |
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hondaicivic
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Daegu, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| hondaicivic wrote: |
| they were at the Apex of their culture |
Any reason why you chose the capital A?
(armchair psychologist at work....) |
Any reason why you're being a grammar nazi? |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:32 am Post subject: |
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My point is not to defend Islam across the board, but to say there's a ton of variance with Islam. Turkey and Indonesia are two of the world's largest Islamic majority countries, yet both boast secular forms of government and broad religious tolerance. The Koran itself provides very, very little in the way of legal guidance, instead depending on records of the words and deeds of the Prophet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadiths). As such, it's really difficult to make broad claims about what the faith demands one way or another.
Basically, I'm an agnostic and I see nothing in the Koran that's any more ridiculous than what I see in the Old Testament. A big part of why I feel the way I do is that I studied under this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wael_Hallaq), who made a pretty convincing case that Islamic archetypes don't necessarily have a historical basis, thus negating whatever claims say what Islam has to or doesn't have to mean. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| hondaicivic wrote: |
| caniff wrote: |
| hondaicivic wrote: |
| they were at the Apex of their culture |
Any reason why you chose the capital A?
(armchair psychologist at work....) |
Any reason why you're being a grammar nazi? |
Seemed like you were getting ready to regurgitate a trademarked slogan or something. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Turkey and Indonesia are two of the world's largest Islamic majority countries, yet both boast secular forms of government and broad religious tolerance. |
You know nothing about Indonesia then, obviously.
Its government is complicit and active in the ethnic cleansing of entire non-muslim communities.
*East Timor Indonesian troops carried out state-sponsored killing of christians in East Timor- about 30% of the country's population.
*Halmahera 2000 Christians driven out, homes and churches destroyed. Conflicting numbers of deaths reported.
*Ambon . 9000 people are killed as Islamic terror group laskar Jihad, accompanied by Indonesian govt. soldiers arrive on the island to ethnically cleanse it of christians.
And it continues today.Government troops once again are busy wiping out christians in Papua.
Papuans beg Jakarta to curb growing violence
December 9 2010
http://www.ucanews.com/2010/12/09/papuans-demand-end-to-violence/
Basically what you have there is the same situation in most muslim countries. An ongoing state-sponsored programme of genocide that gradually robs non-muslims of property, rights and territory. Most of the time it is a low-intensity operation, but regularly it errupts into mass killings involving govt. troops. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Turkey and Indonesia are two of the world's largest Islamic majority countries, yet both boast secular forms of government and broad religious tolerance. |
You know nothing about Indonesia then, obviously.
Its government is complicit and active in the ethnic cleansing of entire non-muslim communities.
*East Timor Indonesian troops carried out state-sponsored killing of christians in East Timor- about 30% of the country's population.
*Halmahera 2000 Christians driven out, homes and churches destroyed. Conflicting numbers of deaths reported.
*Ambon . 9000 people are killed as Islamic terror group laskar Jihad, accompanied by Indonesian govt. soldiers arrive on the island to ethnically cleanse it of christians.
And it continues today.Government troops once again are busy wiping out christians in Papua.
Papuans beg Jakarta to curb growing violence
December 9 2010
http://www.ucanews.com/2010/12/09/papuans-demand-end-to-violence/
Basically what you have there is the same situation in most muslim countries. An ongoing state-sponsored programme of genocide that gradually robs non-muslims of property, rights and territory. Most of the time it is a low-intensity operation, but regularly it errupts into mass killings involving govt. troops. |
Ethnic cleansing perpetrated by Muslims does not automatically equate to ethnic cleansing on the basis of religion. What you see as a jihadist conflict in East Timor is by no means universally accepted as such. From my view, most of the violence committed by the Indonesian state has been ethnically based, for sure, but not religiously so. Java essentially rules the entire country, and is quite willing to push non-Javanese out in order to make space for Javanese. You bring up Papua in particular, where the article says nothing about religious persecution, merely persecution, which again fits with this general meme: the Indonesian state is more than willing to persecute people on the basis of ethnicity. That doesn't mean that they back an Islamist form of government. |
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