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Democracies Don't Fight Each Other=Hooey
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Menino80



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:09 pm    Post subject: Democracies Don't Fight Each Other=Hooey Reply with quote
It seems to me that this is a standard trope oft repeated by the Friedman/Gladwell "superficial/cutely counterintuitive thinking and writing" camp, and comes from Michael W. Doyle's writing on Kant. But what he actually says is "constitutionally secure liberal states have yet to engage in war with one another" (italics his, bolding mine)

history is pretty rife with examples of participatory states going at it, i just think Doyle's pre conditions don't make for such a sexy sound bite.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was expecting a sampling of democracies that had fought each other. Especially given the strong wording in the title.
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Menino80



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nazi Germany, Italy, Japan versus: France, the US, Norway, Denmark, the UK
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Kimbop



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Are you trying to say that Italy and the Empire of Japan circa 1939-1945 were democracies? If so, please stop posting in this forum and cancel your account. Please just go. Thanks.
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Menino80



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kimbop wrote:
Are you trying to say that Italy and the Empire of Japan circa 1939-1945 were democracies? If so, please stop posting in this forum and cancel your account. Please just go. Thanks.


I am!!!! Are you saying you don't know what the word "democracy" means?
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caniff



Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Good thread.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kimbop wrote:
Are you trying to say that Italy and the Empire of Japan circa 1939-1945 were democracies? If so, please stop posting in this forum and cancel your account. Please just go. Thanks.

Nah, he just thinks he's clever - pointing out that Hitler was voted into power. Apparently he has some unique insight into history that has escaped the rest of us. Never mind the obvious fact that Hitler was a tyrannical dictator, we need need more light led on the subtleties brought up by the OP. So let's just sit down, shut up and let him enlighten us.
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Kimbop



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Menino80 wrote:

I am!!!! Are you saying you don't know what the word "democracy" means?


Italy and the Empire of Japan circa 1939-1945 were not democracies.
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Menino80



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The point is that this canard is very limited in scope and contains all kinds of caveats when one just uses the word "democracy" in journalism or rhetoric. As I pointed out, "consitutionally secure liberal states" is really the most parsimonious way to state it, but we never really hear that little doozy trotted out now do we?

It's just a lazy statement, with mounds of counterfactuals: http://users.rcn.com/mwhite28/demowar.htm

Last edited by Menino80 on Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Madigan



Joined: 15 Oct 2010
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
visitorq wrote:
Kimbop wrote:
Are you trying to say that Italy and the Empire of Japan circa 1939-1945 were democracies? If so, please stop posting in this forum and cancel your account. Please just go. Thanks.

Nah, he just thinks he's clever - pointing out that Hitler was voted into power. Apparently he has some unique insight into history that has escaped the rest of us. Never mind the obvious fact that Hitler was a tyrannical dictator, we need need more light led on the subtleties brought up by the OP. So let's just sit down, shut up and let him enlighten us.


Yes, the only one of the three nations that could consider itself to have a democratically elected its leader was Germany. Hitler was properly elected; however, after election he quickly set out to destroy any vestiges of democratic institutions within Germany. Moreover, with regards to Hitler's election, we cannot forget the more prescient point which is the crippling hyper-inflation which preceded his election.
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Menino80



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Expansionist nationalistic militarism and enfranchisement are not mutually exclusive, they just have been recently.
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Madigan



Joined: 15 Oct 2010
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Menino80 wrote:
Expansionist nationalistic militarism and enfranchisement are not mutually exclusive, they just have been recently.


Well yes, Wiemar in the broadest sense was a democracy but, by no means, a liberal one.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It appears the OP has a thesaurus and is not afraid to use it. I'm outta here...
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Menino80



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
visitorq wrote:
It appears the OP has a thesaurus and is not afraid to use it. I'm outta here...


You posted to say you won't post anymore? Stellar work.
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Menino80



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Madigan wrote:
Menino80 wrote:
Expansionist nationalistic militarism and enfranchisement are not mutually exclusive, they just have been recently.


Well yes, Wiemar in the broadest sense was a democracy but, by no means, a liberal one.


I agree, by no means at all liberal. But a democracy.
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