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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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 Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
I wonder if it has something to do with languages being similar to / different from each other. Japanese and Korean were fairly easy to learn with enough effort, while languages like French and German for me tend to stay at a kind of half-fluency where they are easy enough to read and understand but I don't see myself getting anywhere near fluency. On the other hand I haven't ever lived in France or Germany so I can't say whether it's the language itself or just the lack of overseas experience. But since Japanese and Korean have so many untranslatable terms (or terms that just sound awkward) it might be easy to slip into a completely different mode of thought with them.
E.g. how would you even phrase something like 뭐 하시는분이신데? Could you even begin to come up with a translation or an equivalent in your mind that shows both respect for the person being talked about but familiarity to the person the speaker is currently talking to? Someone asking his friend about what his dad does for a living, for example.
So maybe French, German and the rest are just similar enough that the temptation to keep translating into and out of English is tough to resist. |
language terms that are culturally affiliated are never translated in your head into English. you just "automatically" know what they mean/are, etc and like I noted in response to patrickghb, you go into "auto mode".
I'll post the same question to you. Let's say you're involved in some situation with some Korean where you are unsure what is going on, you're trying to assess the other person their motives, and etc etc etc
if you are actively thinking in Korean at such moments, then I want to drink what you're drinking so I can achieve the same trick.
(note this has nothing do with your fluency, auto responses when dealing with another person, I'm talking about thinking as in inner personal thoughts, plans, questions, etc)
you may be unto something with East Asian languages being so different and carrying so much innnate cultural baggage (I don't necessarily mean that in a negative way) that your mind has to "focus" or "think" more along those lines) |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Vagabundo wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
I wonder if it has something to do with languages being similar to / different from each other. Japanese and Korean were fairly easy to learn with enough effort, while languages like French and German for me tend to stay at a kind of half-fluency where they are easy enough to read and understand but I don't see myself getting anywhere near fluency. On the other hand I haven't ever lived in France or Germany so I can't say whether it's the language itself or just the lack of overseas experience. But since Japanese and Korean have so many untranslatable terms (or terms that just sound awkward) it might be easy to slip into a completely different mode of thought with them.
E.g. how would you even phrase something like 뭐 하시는분이신데? Could you even begin to come up with a translation or an equivalent in your mind that shows both respect for the person being talked about but familiarity to the person the speaker is currently talking to? Someone asking his friend about what his dad does for a living, for example.
So maybe French, German and the rest are just similar enough that the temptation to keep translating into and out of English is tough to resist. |
language terms that are culturally affiliated are never translated in your head into English. you just "automatically" know what they mean/are, etc and like I noted in response to patrickghb, you go into "auto mode".
I'll post the same question to you. Let's say you're involved in some situation with some Korean where you are unsure what is going on, you're trying to assess the other person their motives, and etc etc etc
if you are actively thinking in Korean at such moments, then I want to drink what you're drinking so I can achieve the same trick. |
I usually actively think in Korean then but it depends on my mood. It really depends on what you feel like thinking at the time. English is admittedly better for swearing, while for some reason I prefer to both think and talk in Korean with cats, even when away from Korea.
But isn't most thought non-verbal anyway? I just watched myself for the past 15 minutes or so and most thoughts never end up being converted into language in the first place. It's pretty slow and awkward compared to the speed of thought itself. I find that most thoughts of mine are non-verbal and only when I feel like holding it in my mind for a bit longer or need to express it to someone I'm with does it become a sentence in any language. |
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TECO
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| while for some reason I prefer to both think and talk in Korean with cats, even when away from Korea. |
Fascinating, isn't it. I have too. And I caught myself by surprise doing it several years ago. I have also dreamed in Japanese.
At any rate, high proficiency in the language can be both a curse and a benefit all at the same time. |
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pest2
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| less happy; it means I would have been here a long time and used the time I spend doing other more interesting things to learn Korean and talk to Koreans... I'm pretty content with my current level of Korea language skill, personally. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:40 am Post subject: |
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There must be something about animals that evokes non-Indo-European languages.
When I was in South America, I spoke Quechua to dogs. |
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Menino80
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:16 am Post subject: |
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"Do you speak Korean well?"
Hmmmm, I need to learn many vocabularies, I should take a rest. See you next time!!!! |
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willteachforfood
Joined: 24 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Well our experiences differ vagabundo.
I would say I agree with what Mith said in this thread and that it mirrors my experiences. Great discussion anyway! |
I would agree with Vagabundo 100% on this point.
I don't think that you are really listening to what he is saying.
There is a big difference between "thinking" in another language and having a conversation in another language without having your mind translating every sentence as you move along.
I speak a 2nd language to a level of fluency where I have gone months on end without hardly using English at all, but it would be ridiculous to suggest that during those times I "thought" in that language when I was engaged in complex problem solving inside my brain.
It is one thing to be able to express pre-digested thoughts/ideas in a 2nd language without having to stop and translate these opinions from English, it is an entirely different notion to create NEW ideas in a 2nd language without first processing these ideas in your native tongue internally.
Anyhow, people on this board love to gloat about their language skills, amongst other things, but there isn't a single person on this planet who "thinks" in Korean that wasn't born here, or at the very least born to Korean parents elsewhere. If you think that you do....well, you're wrong. Contemplating what you want for dinner "in Korean" in your head, is not the same as problem solving or really "thinking."
I also have dreams in my 2nd language...but I've also had dreams entirely in German (that I understood completely in the context of the dream) and I don't speak German beyond the most basic level. In my opinion to suggest that dreaming in a language is the same as thinking in one is utterly ridiculous.
With regards to whether or not one is happier in Korea if they speak more Korean....of course one is, and to suggest otherwise is asinine. Every word you learn makes your life easier and better....and the idea that we can hear Koreans talk bad about us is irrelevant. They will utter anti-foreigner comments whether we understand what they are saying or not, and what other people say about you shouldn't affect your happiness. If it does, you have other issues to deal with. That being said, the question is not whether or not speaking more Korean will make you happier....it will....the question is whether or not the process required to achieve those language abilities is worth the increase in happiness, as for most of us the process to gain the language skills would detract from our happiness. In my opinion, to get from level 0 to level 2 is well worth the hassle...to be able to solve basic problems on your own and to be able to function at a reasonable level in Korean is worth the hassle, but the efforts required to be able to speak Korean fluently wouldn't be worth it for most of us. Most of us here spend 95% of our time with other foreigners. |
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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:32 am Post subject: |
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ah thank you willteachforfood.
I knew I wasn't completely crazy in my approach/thinking on the topic!
| Quote: |
There is a big difference between "thinking" in another language and having a conversation in another language without having your mind translating every sentence as you move along.
I speak a 2nd language to a level of fluency where I have gone months on end without hardly using English at all, but it would be ridiculous to suggest that during those times I "thought" in that language when I was engaged in complex problem solving inside my brain.
It is one thing to be able to express pre-digested thoughts/ideas in a 2nd language without having to stop and translate these opinions from English, it is an entirely different notion to create NEW ideas in a 2nd language without first processing these ideas in your native tongue internally. |
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methdxman
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| Vagabundo wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Vagabundo wrote: |
patrick are you saying you consciously scheme and plan in a secondary or tertiary language without making a conscious effort to do so in that language?
if so, then I'll just nod but won't believe until/unless it happens to me.
as to "dreaming" in another language, that takes it to another level altogether.
I suppose I'll have to play "doubting Thomas" on this one, which is a role I'm most comfortable with anyways 
btw.. I have a friend who has lived for years in Brazil. His Portuguese is so good that many locals simply think he's from the south (where his lighter skin and blonde hair wouldn't be abnormal in that region of the country).
Yet, I'd often hear him tell me stories where he'd say he said something "in his BEST" Portuguese. I couldn't understand quite what that meant at that time but after learning Spanish I completely do. I could be mistaken but when one takes the time to think something like this over, then you're not "thinking" in the other language.. at best you're thinking in both hopping back and forth and decoding the most "refined" way to phrase something together. |
That is precisely what I am saying!
It happened as I reached fluency in Korean. It happened naturally as I was using the language all the time with co-workers, relatives and friends. It was like switching gears. When talking with my father-in-law for example, I was not thinking in English in my head to formulate replies, it all happened in Korean when I reached expert or fluency level. When reading a Korean novel (the few I have read), the same thing happened. Finally what Mith said about certain concepts or experessions being damn near impossible to translate reinforces the point!
The dreaming in another language was already something I had experienced with my second language and is something I have heard of from those friends of mine who are fluent in more than one language.
Its fine to doubt and discuss this however but seriously, many multi-language speakers end up thinking in the language they are using when they reach an advanced enough level. |
once again, my quibble has nothing to do with your responses once you're fluent. I have the same experiences, but I don't call that "thinking", it's just an "automatic" mode once you have the comfort and fluency in a particular language.
I'll also agree on certain things that are impossible to easily translate, but once again I don't call that thinking. Once again, that's "auto mode".
my "thinking" has to do with schemes and plans and so forth consciously going on inside my head. Those are always in English. I'm a doer not a talker in 99% of my dreams but those are in English too.
if I'm involved in a situation in say Latin America, the fluency will enable me to go into "auto mode" when dealing with whomoever I'm dealing with, but inside my head at the same time, if I'm wondering wtf is this guy up to? what's he doing? what does he want.. etc etc etc etc
all those thoughts are happening in English and always do. |
I think you're supposing that your thoughts have to be in a certain language. I don't think that's necessarily true. You just think.
A feral child doesn't think in any language, but it can wonder in his/her head, who is this strange human approaching me, why do they look a bit hesitant, I didn't know skinny jeans were so popular these days, etc.
I think our brain puts thoughts together by itself without the need for language (again, just guessing, Chomsky probably did something on this). I think language is just a vehicle for "external" reception/transmission i.e, communication.
When people count in their first language, I don't think that this proves that they "think" in their native language. This is just a mechanism for humans to put placeholders i.e, numbers when they're counting. But say you get mugged by some thugs and the police ask you how many there were and you recall that there were 3. I think at the time you got mugged you were not counting in your head in English. Your brain saw three and stored that memory.
Off topic but I think the worst parents are those who have the opportunity to have their child grow up speaking more than one language but only stick to one language because they believe that they might impair the child's learning in the local language. Child abuse! |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:47 am Post subject: |
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I am not in disagreement with Vagabundo. I actually see his point when it comes to HIS situation.
What I was disagreeing with was the "this thinking in Korean thing is BS". Frankly for me and for others I now as well as for people like Mith who posted here, its not BS at all. It is a reality of language acquisition.
We may discuss the meaning of "thinking" all we want and it makes for a good debate however. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| willteachforfood wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Well our experiences differ vagabundo.
I would say I agree with what Mith said in this thread and that it mirrors my experiences. Great discussion anyway! |
I would agree with Vagabundo 100% on this point.
I don't think that you are really listening to what he is saying.
There is a big difference between "thinking" in another language and having a conversation in another language without having your mind translating every sentence as you move along.
I speak a 2nd language to a level of fluency where I have gone months on end without hardly using English at all, but it would be ridiculous to suggest that during those times I "thought" in that language when I was engaged in complex problem solving inside my brain.
It is one thing to be able to express pre-digested thoughts/ideas in a 2nd language without having to stop and translate these opinions from English, it is an entirely different notion to create NEW ideas in a 2nd language without first processing these ideas in your native tongue internally.
Anyhow, people on this board love to gloat about their language skills, amongst other things, but there isn't a single person on this planet who "thinks" in Korean that wasn't born here, or at the very least born to Korean parents elsewhere. If you think that you do....well, you're wrong. Contemplating what you want for dinner "in Korean" in your head, is not the same as problem solving or really "thinking."
I also have dreams in my 2nd language...but I've also had dreams entirely in German (that I understood completely in the context of the dream) and I don't speak German beyond the most basic level. In my opinion to suggest that dreaming in a language is the same as thinking in one is utterly ridiculous.
With regards to whether or not one is happier in Korea if they speak more Korean....of course one is, and to suggest otherwise is asinine. Every word you learn makes your life easier and better....and the idea that we can hear Koreans talk bad about us is irrelevant. They will utter anti-foreigner comments whether we understand what they are saying or not, and what other people say about you shouldn't affect your happiness. If it does, you have other issues to deal with. That being said, the question is not whether or not speaking more Korean will make you happier....it will....the question is whether or not the process required to achieve those language abilities is worth the increase in happiness, as for most of us the process to gain the language skills would detract from our happiness. In my opinion, to get from level 0 to level 2 is well worth the hassle...to be able to solve basic problems on your own and to be able to function at a reasonable level in Korean is worth the hassle, but the efforts required to be able to speak Korean fluently wouldn't be worth it for most of us. Most of us here spend 95% of our time with other foreigners. |
Interesting and now we hit the crux of this discussion: how you define thinking. As I said before, it makes for a great debate.
In practical terms, when it comes to lamguage acquisition and usage to the level of fluency, you do have to think in the language you learn. This means you process the language as it is and not through translation into your mother tongue. This also means you understand concepts proper to that language on their own and not based on translation. Furthermore, it means that when you are engaged in conversation in that language or reading it, you are not refering to English at all. Thats fluency and thats thinking in the language you use.
If you are talking about working on say a work project then thinking can take on a different meaning. Still, if you are working on a project that is in Korean (I have had to do that on numerous occasions) then sorry but I think in Korean, it just happened naturally.
Still we may differ on how we see this thinking issue and its fine that way.  |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:13 am Post subject: |
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End of the "thinking in language X" debate for me fellas. It was interesting.
Back on topic: its a no brainer.
Knowing Korean will make your life better in Korea. That should not even be up for debate! |
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