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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
It's impossible to deny that Israel regularly gets the short end of the stick when it comes to the ineffectual and unrealistic entity that is the United Nations. Israel is scrutinized more deeply than any other nation, and condemned anytime it's found even remotely lacking, a standard no other nation in the world is held to. In the last 30 years, there have been 4 emergency special sessions in the UN. Israel has been the focus of three of them (with the fourth being South Africa). This is despite various violent conflicts in the rest of the world in that time frame.
The United Nations has generally condemned racism and sexism. None the less, until fairly recently not only did it not condemn anti-semitism, but it actually asserted that Zionism -- which at its core is simply the notion that the Jewish people deserve a homeland of their own -- was racism. For other races, a positive group identity is protected and lashing out against that group identity in-and-of itself is condemned. For Jews, a positive group identity was condemned and lashing out against that group identity in-and-of itself was tolerated. This was the United Nations position until 1993, when on United States pressure the Human Rights Condition finally added anti-semitism to its list. It took over 40 years of trying for that simple thing to be accomplished. Let's look at what the resolution would have looked like without antisemitism included:
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| The Commission requests the special rapporteur to examine according to his mandate incidents of contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, any form of discrimination against Blacks, Arabs and Muslims, xenophobia, anti-semitism, and related intolerance as well as governmental measures to overcome them, and to report on these matters to the Commission at its fifty-first session. |
So discrimination against Arabs in general and Muslims specifically wasn't controversial, but getting Jews -- probably one of the most persecuted groups in human history -- onto that list took a real fight. The structure of the United Nations allows Muslim Arab nations to use it as a soap box upon which to stand and demonize Israel again and again and again, and most of the rest of the world has proved all too willing to allow them to go ahead with it. |
Which is also the reason that the whole "Israel has had more resolutions passed against it than any other country" is a meaningless statement. That said, anti-semitic hate group is a bit hyperbolic. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Why then do you support a muslim society that kills women for flirting and does not allow them out of the house without a male escort? |
I don't support Palestine. But I don't support Israel (willingly). If Israel wants to do what it's doing over there, it needs to do it on its own. I want no part in it or the expenses.
| Junior wrote: |
| The Palestinian population has mushroomed since the establishment of Israel. You want to eliminate their beneficiary? |
You sound like a lot of whites here in the southeastern USA who say global slave trafficking and slavery was good for blacks because the global black population mushroomed because of it.
| Junior wrote: |
| The Jews are the original inhabitants of the land. |
It's silly to assume Judaism has existed over there as long as humans have.
| Junior wrote: |
| On what basis do you justify your occupation of North America? |
I don't justify it, but I don't get indignant and call people I don't even know halfway around the world racist if they say they shouldn't give me billions of dollars. Foreigners can keep their money. I don't need any foreign aid and I don't want my government to borrow any. If I want money from a foreigner or anyone else, I'll do a day's work for a day's pay. It's called being a grown up and the Israelis have a lot of growing up to do. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Reggie wrote: |
| It's silly to assume Judaism has existed over there as long as humans have. |
Sure, canaanites pre-dated them as residents of that land, however Canaanites later became Jews. So in fact todays Jews are descended from the original inhabitants.
Judaism as a religion, began with Abraham around 1800 BCE.
Hebrew as a written language is dated by archaeology (scripts from Jerusalem) to at least 1000 BCE.
As a spoken language it generally agreed to date from 1800BCE- the oldest language still in use.
So as you can see.. todays Israelis have probably the best claim to territory, by any measure of sovereign right. They have an unbroken presence in that land for about 4000 years. The Palestinians are relative newcomers.
| Quote: |
| Junior wrote: |
| On what basis do you justify your occupation of North America? |
I don't justify it, but I don't get indignant and call people I don't even know halfway around the world racist if they say they shouldn't give me billions of dollars. |
Are you saying that you want to retire the U.S. from being a superpower?
because Americas superpower status is directly attributable to the number of friends and strategic allies it keeps.
Last time I looked Israel is the only US ally in that region. Without Israel you could not have fought the gulf war for example. The reasons for US alliance with Israel are also quite mercenary. They are in line with american interests, not against them.
The US has many other allies that it funds. That is how it generates its economy, its reach and its political strength.
Sorry but if you think that the paltry 3 billion the US gives to Israel damages your pocket in any way, then you must be apoplectic at the yearly 42 billion wasted on Korea.
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| If I want money ...I'll do a day's work for a day's pay. It's called being a grown up and the Israelis have a lot of growing up to do. |
lol I would hardly describe them as lazy. They are one of the largest economies in the middle east (despite being one of the smallest countries). And they don't even have oil.
But to tackle your basic point? Yes, Israel could survive without US aid. They have a growing economy, they look set to be a world gas power.
But then Israel would have to reconsider all the favours that they give the US. At present America gets to use israeli bases whenever they want. They get to stockpile their weapons and equipment there. Israel buys up vast amounts of dollars to propo up the US currency. Mossad shares intelligence with the US. And so on.
Final question for you.
Turkey is the top recipient of US aid.
http://www.fpif.org/reports/turkey_arms_and_human_rights
Yet it has killed 5000 kurds since 1980, and occupies Kurdish land.
It is one of many countries funded by the US that has terrible human rights records. Why don't I see you outraged about countries like Turkey and demanding to cut all aid to them? |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| So discrimination against Arabs in general and Muslims specifically wasn't controversial, but getting Jews -- probably one of the most persecuted groups in human history -- onto that list took a real fight. The structure of the United Nations allows Muslim Arab nations to use it as a soap box upon which to stand and demonize Israel again and again and again, and most of the rest of the world has proved all too willing to allow them to go ahead with it. |
But Israel receives so much funding!! And Israel is a Western country!! So that's why it's held to higher standards!! Honestly, these are the reasons!! I'm not really an anti-semitic bigot who seeks cover for his bigotry that offers an intellectually respectable veneer, honestly I'm not!! |
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Madigan
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:26 am Post subject: |
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The aid that the US doles out to Israel and Egypt are a result of the 1978 Peace Accord between Israel and Egypt. To wit:
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| The agreement also resulted in the United States committing to several billion dollars worth of annual subsidies to the governments of both Israel and Egypt, subsidies which continue to this day, and are given as a mixture of grants and aid packages committed to purchasing U.S. materiel. From 1979 (the year of the peace agreement) to 1997, Egypt received military aid of US$1.3 billion annually, which also helped modernize the Egyptian military.[16] (This is beyond economic, humanitarian, and other aid, which has totaled more than US$25 billion.) Eastern-supplied until 1979, Egypt now received American weaponry such as the M1A1 Abrams Tank, AH-64 Apache gunship and the F-16 fighter jet. In comparison, Israel has received $3 billion annually since 1985 in grants and military aid packages.[17] |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_Accords#Terms_of_the_agreements
Just so it is understood that the US isn't just giving Israel $3 billion per annum willy-nilly. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| Again: settlements are not in Israel's long-term interest. How is being against settlements anti-semitic? |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| But Israel receives so much funding!! |
3 billion a year of exclusively military aid is not a lot.
Especially when compared to the amounts doled out to other countries.
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| And Israel is a Western country!! |
Israel is in the middle east by the way, not in the west.
Judaism is hardly a western culture.
If you mean to say that its a first world country, then that would be a better description.
South Korea is also a first world country, and the US helps them out to the tune of 42 billion per year.
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| So that's why it's held to higher standards!! |
There's always a new way to shift the goalposts with you guys. 
On the other hand has been ignoring facts, sidestepping questions, shifting goalposts and switching topic for several pages already.
South Korea held massive anti-american demonstrations a few years ago, millions poured onto the streets shouting DOWN WITH THE UNITED STATES!
They burned and trod all over dozens of american flags.
Then koreans besieged US army bases, harassing and intimidating US servicemen. The national media was filled with anti american hatred.
Yet America's response was to re-affirm their $42 million golden handshake with Seoul?
Wow, thats really holding them to a higher standard. |
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Madigan
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| ^Junior, I believe Sergio was being sarcastic. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| But Israel receives so much funding!! |
3 billion a year of exclusively military aid is not a lot.
Especially when compared to the amounts doled out to other countries.
| Quote: |
| And Israel is a Western country!! |
Israel is in the middle east by the way, not in the west.
Judaism is hardly a western culture.
If you mean to say that its a first world country, then that would be a better description.
South Korea is also a first world country, and the US helps them out to the tune of 42 billion per year.
| Quote: |
| So that's why it's held to higher standards!! |
There's always a new way to shift the goalposts with you guys.
On the other hand has been ignoring facts, sidestepping questions, shifting goalposts and switching topic for several pages already.
South Korea held massive anti-american demonstrations a few years ago, millions poured onto the streets shouting DOWN WITH THE UNITED STATES!
They burned and trod all over dozens of american flags.
Then koreans besieged US army bases, harassing and intimidating US servicemen. The national media was filled with anti american hatred.
Yet America's response was to re-affirm their $42 million golden handshake with Seoul?
Wow, thats really holding them to a higher standard. |
He was being sarcastic. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Madigan wrote: |
| ^Junior, I believe Sergio was being sarcastic. |
Yes. |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| US aid to Israel encompasses far more than direct foreign and military aid. The real costs are very difficult to estimate, but are probably in the trillions. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Koveras wrote: |
| US aid to Israel encompasses far more than direct foreign and military aid. The real costs are very difficult to estimate, but are probably in the trillions. |
Do you have a source for that?
Because the one I showed you could not be more credible.
Israel voluntarily stopped recieving "foreign" or civilian aid in 2008. Nowadays its purely military. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
Sure, canaanites pre-dated them as residents of that land, however Canaanites later became Jews. So in fact todays Jews are descended from the original inhabitants.
Judaism as a religion, began with Abraham around 1800 BCE.
Hebrew as a written language is dated by archaeology (scripts from Jerusalem) to at least 1000 BCE.
As a spoken language it generally agreed to date from 1800BCE- the oldest language still in use.
So as you can see.. todays Israelis have probably the best claim to territory, by any measure of sovereign right. They have an unbroken presence in that land for about 4000 years. The Palestinians are relative newcomers. |
People whose families moved to Israel and the West Bank in the 20th and 21st centuries are the newest of newcomers.
| Junior wrote: |
Are you saying that you want to retire the U.S. from being a superpower?
because Americas superpower status is directly attributable to the number of friends and strategic allies it keeps. |
Yes. The empire is unaffordable.
| Junior wrote: |
| Last time I looked Israel is the only US ally in that region. Without Israel you could not have fought the gulf war for example. |
Israel attacked the USS Liberty. Also, read about the Lavon Affair where Israel attempted to use Egyptian Jews to commit terrorist attacks on Americans. The President of Israel honored those Jewish terrorists in a public ceremony in 2005. Friends don't behave in that manner. Israel is not a friend. It's a parasite.
As for this two decades long abomination in Iraq, you have no idea how completely embarrassed I am about all of the unnecessary deaths, unnecessary destruction, unnecessary costs, and unnecessary hatred my country receives as a result of this ongoing war and occupation.
| Junior wrote: |
| The US has many other allies that it funds. That is how it generates its economy, its reach and its political strength. |
My point exactly. The money the US government has taken from working Americans and borrowed for "allies" and "reach" and "political strength" is taking a toll on our economy.
| Junior wrote: |
| Sorry but if you think that the paltry 3 billion the US gives to Israel damages your pocket in any way, then you must be apoplectic at the yearly 42 billion wasted on Korea. |
I frequently complain, even on this website, about the money my government wastes in Korea. The discussions never really get lengthy because, even on a website devoted to South Korea, South Koreans and gyopos don't throw temper tantrums and call American taxpayers racist whenever we say we cannot afford our military operations in Korea or foreign aid directed to South Korea.
| Junior wrote: |
| lol I would hardly describe them as lazy. They are one of the largest economies in the middle east (despite being one of the smallest countries). And they don't even have oil. |
Good. They should be able to pay for their own defenses instead of counting on me to fund it and counting on you to try to tell me why my money should go to foreign Jews instead of being reinvested in my own family.
| Junior wrote: |
| But to tackle your basic point? Yes, Israel could survive without US aid. |
Good. It should do so.
| Junior wrote: |
| But then Israel would have to reconsider all the favours that they give the US. At present America gets to use israeli bases whenever they want. They get to stockpile their weapons and equipment there. Israel buys up vast amounts of dollars to propo up the US currency. Mossad shares intelligence with the US. And so on. |
I do not want my government to stockpile weapons and equipment in Israel. And I certainly do not want my country to fight wars for Israel or for American men or especially American women to die in a US uniform while defending Israel. If some want to go serve in the IDF, fine.
Israel is buying vast amounts of dollars with money our leaders took from us and gave them. Gee, where would we be without Israel? How did America ever survive pre-1948?
Intelligence gathering has been a complete disaster for America, especially in that region of the world. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are dead as well as thousands of dead American soldiers because of "intelligence."
| Junior wrote: |
Final question for you.
Turkey is the top recipient of US aid.
http://www.fpif.org/reports/turkey_arms_and_human_rights
Yet it has killed 5000 kurds since 1980, and occupies Kurdish land.
It is one of many countries funded by the US that has terrible human rights records. Why don't I see you outraged about countries like Turkey and demanding to cut all aid to them? |
Again, I'm for cutting foreign aid to all countries. When I say all countries, that does not exclude Turkey or South Korea, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing them up.
To repeat, I am for the United States of America to cut all foreign aid.
Furthermore, I would like to see every one of our soldiers who are stationed in foreign countries brought home immediately, the ones in combat zones and non-combat zones alike. All of them. I'm okay with some submarines patrolling in international waters relatively close to the USA, but our big clumsy military in its current form is unaffordable. |
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BoholDiver
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| How about all of us pool a few dollars each and buy Junior a one-way ticket to Gaza. If it is such a nice place, he should be able to live well there. |
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Italy37612
Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Location: Somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| ^ I'm in. |
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