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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| tokki wrote: |
| and I would bet that this teacher was on the receiving end for quite some time, and he had no support from school administration or the parents, who most likely condoned it or didnt care about it. Im not sure if you guys would enjoy coming in day ater day to get psychologically assaulted, humilated and insulted by some brat with a video phone who thinks she can do anything cause she's her daddy's little princess. |
This was a Korean teacher (from what I gather). I doubt that he would get NO support from the school adminstration. He went too far (even for a Korean teacher though) and was removed. When you are a teacher you are held to a higher standard of behaviour or at least should be. Physical demonstrations that are generally reserved for bar brawls, have no place in the classroom. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 12:48 am Post subject: |
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I'm with Tokki. Of course I don't condone a grown man punching a schoolgirl... but the lack of ability to see the bigger picture on this thread is astounding. We all love to scream "abuse! Criminal! Kill him!!" but we're ignoring the fact that
a) This is not uncommon in korean classrooms. This teacher was just unlucky to get caught on camera. Many parents would actually approve of their kids being beaten.
b)Teachers of 40+ middleschoolers, with no disciplinary options or support, face huge pressures.
c) We don't know the other side of the story. Maybe she swore at him or was very insulting; maybe she regularly upsets all his lessons and delights in taunting him.
d) By all accounts he was a good teacher. The fact that he actually got angry indicates to me that he cared. I have one class i've stopped caring about. They could shout "shipbal" and even take a dump on the classroom floor, and I wouldn't bat an eyelid. I can't be angry with them, because I don't care either way. |
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phaedrus
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: I'm comin' to get ya.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| They could shout "shipbal" and even take a dump on the classroom floor, and I wouldn't bat an eyelid. I can't be angry with them, because I don't care either way. |
Speaking about taking a dump on the floor, is it the teacher's fault if a student does this? |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| phaedrus wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
| They could shout "shipbal" and even take a dump on the classroom floor, and I wouldn't bat an eyelid. I can't be angry with them, because I don't care either way. |
Speaking about taking a dump on the floor, is it the teacher's fault if a student does this? |
Actually phaedrus you could be right. If a child has any "serious accident" while in your care, you're basically finished as a teacher.
Which is why I go nuts constantly ,trying to stop the kids walking on chairs and tables,- if one of them falls, it'll all be my fault, no matter how many times i yell and lift them onto the floor. |
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phaedrus
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: I'm comin' to get ya.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
| phaedrus wrote: |
| rapier wrote: |
| They could shout "shipbal" and even take a dump on the classroom floor, and I wouldn't bat an eyelid. I can't be angry with them, because I don't care either way. |
Speaking about taking a dump on the floor, is it the teacher's fault if a student does this? |
Actually phaedrus you could be right. If a child has any "serious accident" while in your care, you're basically finished as a teacher.
Which is why I go nuts constantly ,trying to stop the kids walking on chairs and tables,- if one of them falls, it'll all be my fault, no matter how many times i yell and lift them onto the floor. |
I actually think that some things are out of the teachers control. If they are ten and lay out a browner, well...... that's your fault. I'm thinking under 7 Korean age, but they shouldn't know shippal. It happened to me once. A seven year old. She was on crack I swear. Giggled constantly, I mean constantly. What a little retard. Kid's are crazy. Then there are the territorial pissers. I had one, another teacher at my school had one too. Can't stop it once it starts. Just let it run.......... |
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Scott in HK
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: now in Incheon..haven't changed my name yet
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:42 am Post subject: |
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rapier...
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| but the lack of ability to see the bigger picture on this thread is astounding. |
it is astounding...unfortunately it is you among many that are truly failing to see the bigger picture...or in your case...creating your own big picture (by laying the blame at foot of the girl without knowing what she did)
in the states and canada as the purposes of education changed...somewhere in middle of the 60's....before that education's main purpose was to control the population...giving them just enough education to be productive members of society....productive then meant not to think too much and do as you were told....the discipline system mirrored this...the classrooms were teacher-centred and the rote system was in force...do as i day...repeat what i say...learn what i tell you to....mess up and get hit....do not question authority...
around the mid sixties...this changed...the new purpose of education was create thinking individuals...agents of change and question...the control was for the first time handed to some students...student centred learning...teacher as facilitator...
with new educational aims and methods came a change in discipline measures...you can give student's responsibility for their own learning and keep a teacher centred coporal punishment discipline system...
(of course it began to dawn on thinking people that hitting students just didn't really work...it was a response based system...centred on fear rather than a proactive system based on respect)
now teachers in korea are at that moment of change...the old system is being put aside...and a new one is not in place...so their might be frustration...but it is up to 'good' teachers to find a new system for their classroom...and if he was truly a good teacher....and had interesting/effective lessons and his classese were well managed then the students probably wouldn't be torpedoing (spelling) his classes...
good discipline systems take a lot of hard work with teachers and admin working with students create ones that work....coporal punishments system are for the lazy and ignorant...people who refuse to spend any time figuring out why the students are misbehaving and stopping it before it stops...rather they just sit back and respond....or bottle it all in and explode...
the majority of the comments seem to look back on some golden era when the students were all angels and the teachers rule the classroom....it was never true...nor is the thought that every school is sinking into chaos.....
i have a lot more to add...but i also have a three year old calling my name...so rapier...i just want to add the forest is a lot bigger and more complicated than you seem to think.... |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:59 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like a great idea Scott. I think I'll hand over control to my middle school class. Maybe I can "facilitate" them to play starcraft better.
The destruction of western civilisation has been a deliberate plan for some time now.....dumbing down the population, undermining old values, a lack of direction.... |
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Scott in HK
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: now in Incheon..haven't changed my name yet
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:16 am Post subject: |
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or you could learn how to be a teacher and rather than handing it over...which is not what student or learner centred teaching is about...you guide/teach/educate your students how to be responsible..
anyone who thinks society has become dumber is also living under the yellow sky of the golden age...and obviously has not spent any time really talking to young kids today....
it is always nice to listen to people talk about things where their depth of knowledge is akin to puddles on the street and their reasoning rests on the 'it was good enough for my dad'... |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| Scott in HK wrote: |
or you could learn how to be a teacher and rather than handing it over...which is not what student or learner centred teaching is about...you guide/teach/educate your students how to be responsible..
anyone who thinks society has become dumber is also living under the yellow sky of the golden age...and obviously has not spent any time really talking to young kids today....
it is always nice to listen to people talk about things where their depth of knowledge is akin to puddles on the street and their reasoning rests on the 'it was good enough for my dad'... |
You've obviously never taught rebellious middleschoolers in Korea, in a hagwon where if you so much as yell at them to sit down, management accuses you of being mean to the kids..
For your information, I have CELTA. However I realise it was designed to be relevant in a situation, where you're teaching people who actually want to learn.
Army training/ clown school would have been more useful to me out here.
Do they have hagwons in Hong Kong? |
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Scott in HK
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: now in Incheon..haven't changed my name yet
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:35 am Post subject: |
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you bet i have...
middleschoolers...highschoolers..hogwans...private classes...all in korea
private language schools in canada
highschoolers now...and the ones i teach now are far worse than the ones that i taught in korea...
nine years experience...
and i suck at classroom management
but when i fail the good fight...i don't hit my students...i try something new
somethings have worked and somethings have not...
and because i still think i suck (i suppose it is relative...i am not as good as i want to be)...i still read books and articles and adapt things to use in my classroom
and i know something about education....so i know that ultimately....corporal punishment is a pisspoor way to control a class... |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:49 am Post subject: |
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Wrong, wrong, wrong.....
i grew up with a system of corporal punishment...we excelled at our studies... and never said boo to the teachers.. We weren't unquestioning robots either. We just knew how to question authority in a respectful way.
People respect strength, first and foremost. You have to have this, before they will accept what you're trying to teach them.
The reason i've given up on a particular class is because the money-oriented hagwon has totally denied me the basic tools to do the job of teaching them..... |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:21 am Post subject: |
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Rapier, it seems that ever second message in this thread is from you, yet you haven't done anything to support your theory that violence is necessary other than using yourself as an example of what happens when violence is used in support of education or just saying everyone else is wrong.
I teach middle school and high school levels, and I don't have the problems you speak of. I request larger classes because no one wants them and I get paid more because of it (some classes of over 40 students).
Rather than engage in an epic battle of anecdotal evidence, why don't you bust out the research that supports your position since you're going to such lengths to defend it. |
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Corky
Joined: 06 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:38 am Post subject: |
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Your goal as a teacher should be to create trust and comfort, not fear.
Corporal punishment creates fear. Fear is not respect: it's a form of disgust. You get more respect and trust from your students if you can defuse a situation without losing your cool. The message you send to your students by slapping or strapping them is terrible, and it creates a master/slave dynamic. It's just not a good teacher/student relationship.
Corporal punishment isn't going to do anything but create tension and disgust, and it'll give your students bad memories for years to come. No one trusts someone who controls them with violence, no matter how small or large that threat of violence is. They're just scared of them.
If you can't figure out an alternative to corporal punishment, then you need more education or a new job, maybe one in a prison. A quick internet search under "corporal punsihment + children" or "alternatives to corporal punishment" might help you.
http://www.nospank.net/pta.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spanking.htm |
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Scott in HK
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: now in Incheon..haven't changed my name yet
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:40 am Post subject: |
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rapier wrote....
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| i grew up with a system of corporal punishment...we excelled at our studies... and never said boo to the teachers.. We weren't unquestioning robots either. We just knew how to question authority in a respectful way. |
and i grew up in a system without coporal punishment and we excelled at our studies as well...so if it works just as well without the hitting...why have the hitting...
i love using personal stories to back up ideas...it is just so damn easy...
and finally....i think that you admitted before that you school had a system of respect that went way beyond is system of coporal punishment... |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
People respect strength, first and foremost. You have to have this, before they will accept what you're trying to teach them.
The reason i've given up on a particular class is because the money-oriented hagwon has totally denied me the basic tools to do the job of teaching them..... |
???
You can show strength and get respect without having to hit someone. I taught in a middle school, deal with all of the expected problems that comes with hakwon middle school students and what comes with public schools, and never once did I need to seriously smack someone around or strike them. There's a lot more to getting a class on your side than being a ranting, raving lunatic; the couple of classes where I played that role saw me dealing with my worst classes. Other classes also gave me problems, but I took a different approach, and by the end of the year some of them had even turned around and grown on me. I won't say I was their favorite teacher or anything, but it's not hard to get kids to like you...and it doesn't require knocking them silly.
Corporal punishment(different from abuse)...some of it I can accept, but most of it I can't. If a kid is being really, truly awful, I have no problems with making them hold something over their head for a while, but when it comes to rulers to the hand or back of the leg, it's not necessary. It shouldn't be necessary, for a teacher.
As far as the "decay" of Western education, I blame that on the fact that parents either spoil their children, or pay no attention to their children. With mother and father both working, kids don't really have much of a role model for behavior, nor do they have any concept of discipline. If teachers aren't allowed to discipline very much, I see no problems, but the role should squarely fall on parents' shoulders. |
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