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Oreovictim
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
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 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| You know those Ferrero Rocher chocolates? I swear that they used to be 1,300원 for a pack of three. Now they're 1,600원! |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Slowmotion wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Rely on your employer or government to ensure a climbing wage and you're in for trouble. Rely on yourself to pursue opportunities and earn promotion, and you'll be on better ground.
It's also incumbent upon us to change our lifestyle and cut costs.
Free Lunch Time is over. |
I wasn't asking for a pep talk or extra motivation. I think it's only fair if the price of everything is going up, people's salaries should up to offset this.
Should people who live in areas where the cost of living is really high not expect to get paid more? They should just "pursue opportunities and earn promotion???" Come on man |
All right, time for reality: Life isn't fair.
Businesses aren't charities designed to offer you a certain lifestyle, the are profit-driven operations. They will pay what they think gets them the best labor force for the lowest amount of money.
Corporations are driven by shareholders who demand returns on their investments, not some notion of "fairness".
A publics school doesn't calculate NET salaries based on cost of living. It calculates them based on how they have been allocated in their budget (enacted through legislation and based off of taxes and the whims of people trying to get reelected) and what they can expect to command through the labor market.
If you really think that paying a couple hundred thousand won more is going to have a dramatic impact on your "quality" or "motivation" in this industry, sorry, but you aren't that magical.
As for Hagwon's, these don't exist to provide English education. These exist to generate a profit for the owner. They don't exist to provide you a living wage and a comfortable lifestyle.
Things are earned. By your own efforts one determines how much they earn and save. If you feel that an 8,000 won bottle of Febreeze is a necessity and spend your money accordingly, then you get the ship you are sailing in.
I'm sorry, but as a business owner, why should I have 8,000 won less luxury so you can have 8,000 won more luxury? Now, I don't necessarily agree with this, but you have to resolve things from that standpoint. Your boss isn't in this for charity.
If someone said they wanted 8,000 won more a day so they could afford their Febreeze, I would tell them go out and do 8,000 won worth of work or save 8,000 won by not buying something else. Maybe instead of buying 8,000 won bottles of Febreeze you could put up with a slightly smelly apartment and use that money towards something that will make you money.
The average NET can save 1,000,000 won a month if they budget their money properly. The things you can do with that money should more than cover the cost of inflation. The inflation rate is running at about 4%. A 1-year CD goes about 4.5% Now this is not going to do much, but if these increase in expenses are freaking you out, well then there is a solution. Heck, you could even try buying some stocks or commodities and look for a higher rate of return.
Food too expensive? Plant a garden. It's what human beings did for the first 10,000 years of our existence.
Look, our system is nasty, unfair, and immoral. But its the way it is. If you want more, you have to work at it or put your noodle to work. No one is going to hand money to you for free. It's incumbent upon you to generate more income, not your employer.
| Quote: |
| developed world's working stiffs and the developing world's poor |
Give these people 80% of the rich people's money and in 5 years 95% of that money would be back in the hands of the wealthy because these noble poor would spend the money on stupid stuff. |
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willteachforfood
Joined: 24 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:17 am Post subject: |
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While I disagree vehemently with nearly every single one of Steelrails views with regards to Korea....this post of his is spot on. I agree whole heartedly with every single character he typed, down to the apostrophes.
Salaries in nearly every field across the board are determined by supply and demand....if you want to make more money you have 2 options:
1. Do something that other people don't want to do...this can be a dangerous job, boring job, tiring job, tedious job, difficult job, or risky 'job' (i.e. start your own business)
2. Do something that other people can't do, generally by virtue of achieving some form of high-level education or training....some examples, be a doctor, lawyer, dentist, scientist, or even a deep-sea diver or crane operator
While there is certainly option 3...meaning get lucky and fall into a job that pays you more than you're worth...this is a rarity. Most high paying jobs are high paying for a reason.....because you make more money for someone else.
If you don't want to do option 1 or option 2....then you're stuck making whatever salary is the equilibrium between supply and demand for your field.
A lot of people complain that their salary has not gone up in Korea....personally I think that they are mistaken as starting salaries seem to be at least 300,000 more per month than when I first came to Korea in 2004....but for the sake of argument let's assume that I am wrong and salaries have stagnated....there are other reasons why salaries have not risen that have nothing to do with greed or unfairness:
It is WAY easier to live in Korea these days than it used to be....Korea still sucks, but it used to REALLY suck...if you think Koreans don't speak English now....they used to be way worse....if you think there aren't enough Western foods/products available, you have no idea what it was like even 5 years ago....foreigners get stared at less, discriminated against less, it's easier to get a cell phone/apartment/car/etc. than it used to be....there are WAY more waygooks here now too, so that makes it more comfortable for the average whitey....is it still challenging to live here at times? Sure. I really hate it here....but it used to be FAR more difficult. So....salaries are greatly influenced by how sucky it is to live here...the suckier it is the higher the pay...this is why jobs in Thailand don't pay squat. |
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Slowmotion
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
All right, time for reality: Life isn't fair.
Businesses aren't charities designed to offer you a certain lifestyle, the are profit-driven operations. They will pay what they think gets them the best labor force for the lowest amount of money.
Corporations are driven by shareholders who demand returns on their investments, not some notion of "fairness".
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Why do people in cities like San Fransisco and New York make more money than people in other cities then? Shouldn't they have to make the sacrifices you mention in your posts? Or.... instead they just live their life fine because their high cost of living is offset by their higher salaries. A teacher in SF makes more than the one in Montana, but it has nothing to do the things you mentioned. Fabreeze might cost $8 in NY, but the offset in their salary doesn't make it feel as expensive.
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A publics school doesn't calculate NET salaries based on cost of living. It calculates them based on how they have been allocated in their budget (enacted through legislation and based off of taxes and the whims of people trying to get reelected) and what they can expect to command through the labor market.
If you really think that paying a couple hundred thousand won more is going to have a dramatic impact on your "quality" or "motivation" in this industry, sorry, but you aren't that magical.
As for Hagwon's, these don't exist to provide English education. These exist to generate a profit for the owner. They don't exist to provide you a living wage and a comfortable lifestyle.
Things are earned. By your own efforts one determines how much they earn and save. If you feel that an 8,000 won bottle of Febreeze is a necessity and spend your money accordingly, then you get the ship you are sailing in. |
I'm not even talking about NET, i'm talking about everyone in Seoul. The price of everything is going up including housing, yet we make the same amount of money. The consumer pays more and gets less and less each year because of it.
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I'm sorry, but as a business owner, why should I have 8,000 won less luxury so you can have 8,000 won more luxury? Now, I don't necessarily agree with this, but you have to resolve things from that standpoint. Your boss isn't in this for charity.
If someone said they wanted 8,000 won more a day so they could afford their Febreeze, I would tell them go out and do 8,000 won worth of work or save 8,000 won by not buying something else. Maybe instead of buying 8,000 won bottles of Febreeze you could put up with a slightly smelly apartment and use that money towards something that will make you money. |
This doesn't even make sense. You're getting charged 8,000 MORE for a bottle of fabreeze, the price is 8,000. It's price gouging.
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The average NET can save 1,000,000 won a month if they budget their money properly. The things you can do with that money should more than cover the cost of inflation. The inflation rate is running at about 4%. A 1-year CD goes about 4.5% Now this is not going to do much, but if these increase in expenses are freaking you out, well then there is a solution. Heck, you could even try buying some stocks or commodities and look for a higher rate of return.
Look, our system is nasty, unfair, and immoral. But its the way it is. If you want more, you have to work at it or put your noodle to work. No one is going to hand money to you for free. It's incumbent upon you to generate more income, not your employer.
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If there was a balanced system here, I wouldn't have to put in extra work so I could buy the same amount of stuff as last year for even more. Earn more money to buy the same amount of stuff? I'd rather earn more money to buy more stuff.
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| Food too expensive? Plant a garden |
Why even type ridiculous things like this? This is not even a realistic option. Let me pay for land, which is highly expensive, so I can plant a garden and lose money. Great idea! I'd be better if you approached this more realistically, instead of with your holy than thou attitude and 'ideal solutions' that you probably don't even follow yourself. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| jst wrote: |
| chellovek wrote: |
| jst wrote: |
| chellovek wrote: |
Well yes, there have been news stories about this type of thing globally for a while now.
Something to do with poor harvests and the summer fires in Russia, or morbidly obese people gobbling up all the spare food, can't remember which.
You can balance your budget by eating less, like me. |
Or perhaps part of it is due to more farmland being used to grow vegetables for biofuels instead of for human consumption. |
Good catch, I recall that being said back during the riots in 2008 just before the recession as well. |
Riots have occurred in the past due to companies like Monsanto pushing genetically modified seeds on farmers. These seeds make the farmers more dependent on Monsanto (Monsanto produces terminator seeds, which forces the farmer to buy seeds every year. Farmers also have to buy Roundup from Monsanto to spray on the seeds.) Monsanto's PR machine claims that their seeds produce a bigger yield than conventional seeds, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
So, more farmers using Monsanto seeds means less yield, which means the same, or greater, demand for less produce. This results in higher costs for the consumer.
"USAID [United States Agency for International Development] and Monsanto's poison pill for Haiti is designed to the make the island nation into a slave colony once again, except this time they won't be slaves for France, but rather for Monsanto and corporate agribusiness."
Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ronnie-cummins/monsantos-poison-pills-fo_b_587340.html
"Under most conditions extensive evidence shows that RR [Roundup Ready] soybeans produce lower yields than possible if farmers planted comparable but non-engineered varieties."
Source: http://www.mindfully.org/GE/RRS-Yield-Drag.htm
"Almost half of all corn grown in the US is genetically engineered and for soybeans it is 80%.
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"What we've seen with the herbicide tolerant soybeans overall, is a 5-10% lower yield with the Round-up Ready soybeans - that's the herbicide tolerant soybean sold by Monsanto," he [Bill Freese at the Centre for Food Safety] says."
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7866687.stm |
This makes me rather depressed. |
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willteachforfood
Joined: 24 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:45 am Post subject: |
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It is very clear that Slowmotion knows very little about how the world works and understands even less about basic economic principles.
| Slowmotion wrote: |
| Why do people in cities like San Fransisco and New York make more money than people in other cities then? Shouldn't they have to make the sacrifices you mention in your posts? |
People in these cities are paid more because of the laws of supply and demand....if the employers, whether they be public or private, do not pay higher wages, allowing their employees to afford the higher cost of living then they wouldn't be able to find employees. They do not do this out of the goodness of their heart....furthermore, the companies generally earn more money in these large markets as well.
If the salaries offered to teachers in Seoul are not sufficient for the teachers to live off of, then people will stop accepting these jobs....but guess what? Jobs in Seoul tend to fill up rather quickly....perhaps the salaries are indeed sufficient to cover the cost of living in the city.
| Quote: |
| I'm not even talking about NET, i'm talking about everyone in Seoul. The price of everything is going up including housing, yet we make the same amount of money. The consumer pays more and gets less and less each year because of it. |
Again....as Steelrails pointed out, life is not fair. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer....this is how the world has always run, runs now, and always will run. It is only the relative concept of what is rich and what is poor that changes....a poor person today is better off than a poor person in 1850, but the structure is the same.
The price of housing will only go up if people can afford to pay it....if there is nobody who can afford the price of housing, then the price will fall...so, clearly people have the money to pay for this increase in housing prices or the increases would simply never come about as landlords will lower the price on vacant units until they find a renter/buyer.
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If there was a balanced system here, I wouldn't have to put in extra work so I could buy the same amount of stuff as last year for even more. Earn more money to buy the same amount of stuff? I'd rather earn more money to buy more stuff. |
Everyone would like to earn more money, this is a given. Across the board salaries DO increase with inflation, perhaps not at the exact same moment but they do increase. I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that if you were to provide me with a print-out of your yearly income over the past 5 years (assuming they were all in Korea) that your income has indeed increased to keep pace with inflation.
You have a very naive view/understanding of the world my friend....it is best that you stay in education and never enter the world of business.
Last edited by willteachforfood on Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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willteachforfood
Joined: 24 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| akcrono wrote: |
| This makes me rather depressed. |
Blah, blah, blah....people are living an average of 30 years longer eating these supposedly horrible genetically modified foods than back in the day when everything was all natural.
You've got to take the good with the bad...you can't have brain surgery, BMWs, and iPhones without trace amounts of chemicals in your milk and rat poop in your Nalley's Chili. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| A teacher in SF makes more than the one in Montana, but it has nothing to do the things you mentioned. |
Really? You mean to tell me that salaries in San Francisco and Montana are based off of notions of fairness and not things like government budgets, legislation, unions, number of pupils, and demand for teachers?
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| The price of everything is going up including housing, yet we make the same amount of money.I'm not even talking about NET, i'm talking about everyone in Seoul. |
So you are speaking for the people of Seoul now? Are you suggesting that no one in Seoul received a pay raise last year?
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| This doesn't even make sense. You're getting charged 8,000 MORE for a bottle of fabreeze, the price is 8,000. It's price gouging. |
No its not. Febreeze is a "want" good, not a need. It's not like flour or gasoline. If you don't like the price of Febreeze, buy some knockoff brand that costs less. Febreeze costs that much because it is profitable to sell it at this price.
People aren't making Febreeze as a charity. They are making it to make money.
Guess what if Febreeze doesn't maximize their profits? Then their competitors who do maximize their profits will get a leg up on them. Who knows, maybe they will put Febreeze out of business. (For arguments sake)
Besides, wouldn't your bleeding-heart agree that the more Febreeze makes that in theory, the better benefits it can give to its workers? Maybe discount brand uses sweatshop labor and dangerous additives and doesn't provide health care. Maybe Febreeze does.
You know what happens to companies that aren't profitable? They tend to lay people off and go into bankruptcy.
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| Earn more money to buy the same amount of stuff? I'd rather earn more money to buy more stuff. |
No ones stopping you from pursuing a higher paying job. No ones stopping you from investing. No ones stopping you from saving your money. No one is stopping you from buying cheaper products.
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| Why even type ridiculous things like this? This is not even a realistic option. Let me pay for land, which is highly expensive, so I can plant a garden and lose money. |
If you have the space you can plant a garden. Grow some onions or cucumbers.
And nothing is stopping you from hand washing, or mending your own clothes, or buying cheaper brands, or building your own furniture except your own sense of aesthetics.
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| Great idea! I'd be better if you approached this more realistically, instead of with your holy than thou attitude and 'ideal solutions' that you probably don't even follow yourself. |
Realistically? You mean whining at corporations to give me more money?
So you are against inflation. And you want to see your wages rise? Should the government pay us public school teachers more?
Should they A)Raise taxes on single working mothers so we can have Febreeze or B)Start the printing out more money?
WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION? Lay it out step by step. Not just one-liners like "pay us a rate to match inflation", but describe where the money comes from and how it gets distributed. Go through the process in detail.
Yes, yes take it out of the rich people's pocket- How? Your just going to send that money back to them anyways when you but the Febreeze that you sell.
If you want their lifestyle instead of buying Febreeze, use your money to generate more money.
One other question- Have you ever owned and operated a business? A real one, where you have employees.
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| While I disagree vehemently with nearly every single one of Steelrails views with regards to Korea....this post of his is spot on. |
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| It is very clear that Slowmotion knows very little about how the world works and understands even less about basic economic principles. |
Thank you. Seriously. |
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willteachforfood
Joined: 24 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Thank you. Seriously. |
I remember once when I was in college there were 2 protests in the same week.
The first protest was a protest against a proposed raise of tuition rates....something silly like 3-4%. You know....to cover the costs of inflation.
The second protest was for hiring better professors and getting newer and more computers in the labs.
If Slowmotion had been a student at my uni back then, undoubtedly he would have been one of the numb nuts to march in both rallies. Even if he couldn't afford Febreeze to 'clean' his clothes before the rally....actually this was well before the days of Febreeze. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| bobbybigfoot wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| it may not be 50% flat across, but it was substantial. |
What does this mean?
That prices are 50% cheaper in the US? |
I'm looking at a photo I took in a market right now...
San Fran one year ago:
Cateloupe Melons - 2 for $1
Honeydw Melons - 2 for $5
Mangoes - 2 for $1
All Apples - 79 to 99 cents a pound
Bananas - 2lbs for $1
Anyone want to compare that to Korean prices? |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:24 am Post subject: |
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Everything Steelrails said would be a little closer to the truth if there was a free labor market for foreign teachers in Korea. Obviously, it is not. FTs can't just work more or even change their jobs (in Korea). FTs probably can't even legally plant a garden - though I wouldn't be surprised if some did anyway.
So, FTs can't do much about inflation except ask (or if they prefer - demand) raises.
Yes, it has become socially acceptable to allow business owners to only consider their own personal interests when hiring and employing people.
While it is less socially acceptable, under such a situation, people selling their labor have an equal right to negotiate their salary. Let's not forget that.
When X says I think Y company should pay a "fair" wage what X is really saying is I have right to negotiate a new salary.
Now, whether X wins that argument is based on a lot of different factors, some of which may seem unfair to X and his or her expression of unfairness is true to him or her and whether other people are sympathetic or not is completely up to them but it seems unreasonable to deny their feeling of unfairness.
Personally, I would not overly argue the need for business owners to seek their personal interests in the labor market without balancing it to argue the need for sellers of labor to do what it takes to win their negotiation of salary in the labor market. Otherwise, it is a very one sided argument.
Now, we can make things "fair" and "reasonable" for all including business owners and sellers of labor or we can allow brute negotiations of power decided this negotiation. It is up to us as a society to decide how this labor market will work. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Everything Steelrails said would be a little closer to the truth if there was a free labor market for foreign teachers in Korea. Obviously, it is not. FTs can't just work more or even change their jobs (in Korea). |
At the end of the year they can seek employment elsewhere. We are talking about year-to-year price increases not day-to-day.
The cost of things hasn't gone down because nearly expired bread is on sale. Likewise, don't expect your wages to be updated each week to reflect inflation.
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| So, FTs can't do much about inflation except ask (or if they prefer - demand) raises. |
Or find another job.
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| Yes, it has become socially acceptable to allow business owners to only consider their own personal interests when hiring and employing people. |
As opposed to the "My money is your money" era of 19Never?
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| Now, we can make things "fair" and "reasonable" for all including business owners and sellers of labor or we can allow brute negotiations of power decided this negotiation. It is up to us as a society to decide how this labor market will work. |
Sure, the person being hired is free to negotiate. And they should. If they bring something special and make me more money than some other guy, yes I will pay what keeps things profitable. If they don't, well I can get someone else to say "How's the weather Nami?"
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San Fran one year ago:
Cateloupe Melons - 2 for $1
Honeydw Melons - 2 for $5
Mangoes - 2 for $1
All Apples - 79 to 99 cents a pound
Bananas - 2lbs for $1 |
True, but shouldn't we also do a comparison of arable land, and arable land suitable for growing Mangoes or Bananas as a percentage of total land in Korea vs. that of the United States? Also add in population density and how much population takes up what would potentially be arable land.
I don't have the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that Korea doesn't have anything approaching California, Florida, Kansas, Nebraska, and so on.
Also to consider are transportation costs in the cost of food. Korea has to import virtually all of its petroleum. The U.S. has vast areas where it can drill for oil.
Food is going to cost a bit more in a nation that is filled with mountains, densely populated, and has no sources of domestic petroleum and is essentially an island (Virtually no trade through NK). Also add in the fact that it is a nation that has a moderately high per-capita income and you are going to get these prices.
Sure things are cheap in the Philippines, but there is a reason for that.... |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
True, but shouldn't we also do a comparison of arable land, and arable land suitable for growing Mangoes or Bananas as a percentage of total land in Korea vs. that of the United States? Also add in population density and how much population takes up what would potentially be arable land.
I don't have the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that Korea doesn't have anything approaching California, Florida, Kansas, Nebraska, and so on. |
You don't need to have a lot of arable land to be able to put cheap food in the supermarkets. You simply import from countries where food is produced cheaply. If Korean food distributors and/or supermarkets were allowed to import food from wherever they wish then we wouldn't get 12,000 won cabbages and 20,000 won watermelons. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| eamo wrote: |
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True, but shouldn't we also do a comparison of arable land, and arable land suitable for growing Mangoes or Bananas as a percentage of total land in Korea vs. that of the United States? Also add in population density and how much population takes up what would potentially be arable land.
I don't have the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that Korea doesn't have anything approaching California, Florida, Kansas, Nebraska, and so on. |
You don't need to have a lot of arable land to be able to put cheap food in the supermarkets. You simply import from countries where food is produced cheaply. If Korean food distributors and/or supermarkets were allowed to import food from wherever they wish then we wouldn't get 12,000 won cabbages and 20,000 won watermelons. |
So we support labor that pays cheaply and doesn't provide health care, retirement, vacations, great working conditions, etc. etc.?
Hey if Koreans want to pay for expensive stuff, fine. But just saying, comparing food prices between the U.S. and Korea is a bit whack. The breadbasket of the world vs. A rocky "island" is going to have some discrepancies.
Again, yes, food is cheap in the Philippines. So is life. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| eamo wrote: |
| Quote: |
True, but shouldn't we also do a comparison of arable land, and arable land suitable for growing Mangoes or Bananas as a percentage of total land in Korea vs. that of the United States? Also add in population density and how much population takes up what would potentially be arable land.
I don't have the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that Korea doesn't have anything approaching California, Florida, Kansas, Nebraska, and so on. |
You don't need to have a lot of arable land to be able to put cheap food in the supermarkets. You simply import from countries where food is produced cheaply. If Korean food distributors and/or supermarkets were allowed to import food from wherever they wish then we wouldn't get 12,000 won cabbages and 20,000 won watermelons. |
So we support labor that pays cheaply and doesn't provide health care, retirement, vacations, great working conditions, etc. etc.?
Hey if Koreans want to pay for expensive stuff, fine. But just saying, comparing food prices between the U.S. and Korea is a bit whack. The breadbasket of the world vs. A rocky "island" is going to have some discrepancies.
Again, yes, food is cheap in the Philippines. So is life. |
The western developed countries have been importing cheap food from the developing world for hundreds of years.
You might legitimately worry about the workers rights in those countries but I don't think anyone in those countries would actually be too happy if Tesco's cancelled all their contracts. Including the exploited workers.
Let those countries work out their labor law themselves........meanwhile, an effective government should work at putting reasonably priced food on the shelves for their own population. |
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