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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| The western developed countries have been importing cheap food from the developing world for hundreds of years. |
I don't think things could approach anything called moral for all but the last 25 of those years.
And again none of those countries is in the same trade position as Korea- Korea is much farther away, hasn't had the historical bases of operation in those countries, is much more geographically isolated, and has far fewer trading partners in immediate proximity. That and its economy is much more export driven which means importing products will be a touch more expensive.
But yes, perhaps Korea should support supply-side economic policies like those favored by George W. Bush and his fellows.
| Quote: |
| meanwhile, an effective government should work at putting reasonably priced food on the shelves for their own population |
Groceries may be pricier here, but I don't think I could find anything comparable to a KimBap restaurant back home serving those kinds of prices. As long as I can get a thing of JaeYookDupBap for $3 I'll have no complaints about the food prices here. The only prepared food you can get for $3 back home is McD's and Taco Bell.
Also, it seems Korea's food prices are much more affected by the seasons. That and it seems like Koreans know where to find the bargains at that we sometimes aren't aware of. I also think if one followed a more traditional Korean diet that the prices of certain things would not be as high.
And of course there was the bad weather this year+Foot&Mouth.
I also don't think there is anything going on in terms of food prices that warrants any further government intervention beyond FTAs and the like, which the Korean government has been on the ball with this year. Be patient, price relief in theory should be coming. |
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willteachforfood
Joined: 24 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Most all consumer good are cheaper in the United States than in other first world countries. This is not only because of the USA's vast wealth in natural resources, but mostly because of economies of scale and competition. Even compared to Canada, UK, Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and so on, you generally find that most goods cost less in the US. From groceries to electronics to oil to cell phone plans.....sure, other costs of living are higher (i.e. housing and health care), but the cost of "goods" generally is cheaper....and MUCH cheaper.
Therefore, it's silly to compare the price of consumer goods in Korea (or virtually any country) to those in the US. The US has lower prices than everyone, so essentially, what are you hoping to prove?
Whenever you move to a foreign country you have to look at the overall 'basket' of goods and services that you buy and not just nitpick the dozen or so items that seem to be ridiculously overpriced...similarly we should not celebrate TOO much the dozen or so goods or services that are grossly under priced. These things generally even out.
A taxi ride to the supermarket to buy a block of cheese probably costs exactly the same in the US as it does in Korea....it is simply the ratio of which good/service costs more that is different.
Korea: $10 for cheese, $2 for taxi ride
USA: $10 for taxi ride, $2 for cheese
There are ALL SORTS of goods in our home countries that we would LIKE to buy, but we don't because they are too expensive....or we only buy them on occasion, even when there doesn't seem to be a good reason for the high price. So why should it be any different here? If you don't want to pay the high price of cheese or melon, then eat something else.....OR, pay the high price of cheese and know that you paid $100 less this month in electricity to cover the cost of a luxury good (in Korea, for Koreans, proper cheese is a luxury good...luxury doesn't mean that it's only for the rich, it means that it it not a 'need' item.)
All in all....I think that a person who makes $2500/month lives better in Korea than someone who makes the same amount in the US. "Lives better" meaning that they have more disposable income and can be more free with their money.......of course they don't live better, Korea is a crappy country....but that's not what we're arguing here. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
San Fran one year ago:
Cateloupe Melons - 2 for $1
Honeydw Melons - 2 for $5
Mangoes - 2 for $1
All Apples - 79 to 99 cents a pound
Bananas - 2lbs for $1 |
True, but shouldn't we also do a comparison of arable land, and arable land suitable for growing Mangoes or Bananas as a percentage of total land in Korea vs. that of the United States? Also add in population density and how much population takes up what would potentially be arable land.
I don't have the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that Korea doesn't have anything approaching California, Florida, Kansas, Nebraska, and so on.
Also to consider are transportation costs in the cost of food. Korea has to import virtually all of its petroleum. The U.S. has vast areas where it can drill for oil.
Food is going to cost a bit more in a nation that is filled with mountains, densely populated, and has no sources of domestic petroleum and is essentially an island (Virtually no trade through NK). Also add in the fact that it is a nation that has a moderately high per-capita income and you are going to get these prices.
Sure things are cheap in the Philippines, but there is a reason for that.... |
As a consumer, I'm not always concerned with the 'why' so much as the 'how much?'
| willteachforfood wrote: |
| All in all....I think that a person who makes $2500/month lives better in Korea than someone who makes the same amount in the US. "Lives better" meaning that they have more disposable income and can be more free with their money....... |
Factor out the 'free housing' that most posters on here assume, and I'm not so sure of this. |
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willteachforfood
Joined: 24 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Factor out the 'free housing' that most posters on here assume, and I'm not so sure of this. |
Sorry...I should have specified that I was taking the free housing out of the equation...that's why I said $2500 and not $2000, the extra $500 was to take place of the housing.
Housing isn't nearly as expensive in the US as you think, however, dollar for dollar for what you get.
Sure...you can get a tiny, craphole in Korea for $400/month, but $400/month will get you a room in a shared house with a yard/nice kitchen/deck/parking, and so on at home....when it comes to housing costs we're often not comparing apples to apples here. |
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Menino80
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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How to solve food prices Korean style
This wheat colony brought to you by Daewoo! |
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Slowmotion
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| willteachforfood wrote: |
All in all....I think that a person who makes $2500/month lives better in Korea than someone who makes the same amount in the US. "Lives better" meaning that they have more disposable income and can be more free with their money.......of course they don't live better, Korea is a crappy country....but that's not what we're arguing here. |
Most of that extra disposable income comes from the fact most people(NETs) don't pay for a car and insurance. A car isn't a necessity here, where as back home, pretty much everyone drives. Hell even ghetto people have a car, have you seen the people that ride public transportation in some of these cities?
If a car was a necessity here it'd wouldn't be any better.
| willteachforfood wrote: |
People in these cities are paid more because of the laws of supply and demand....if the employers, whether they be public or private, do not pay higher wages, allowing their employees to afford the higher cost of living then they wouldn't be able to find employees. They do not do this out of the goodness of their heart....furthermore, the companies generally earn more money in these large markets as well. |
Sorry I'm not an economics major or anything, but isn't Seoul considered a "large market" as well?
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If the salaries offered to teachers in Seoul are not sufficient for the teachers to live off of, then people will stop accepting these jobs....but guess what? Jobs in Seoul tend to fill up rather quickly....perhaps the salaries are indeed sufficient to cover the cost of living in the city.
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Jobs also fill up in Seoul because it's highly competitive in Korea. People would rather make some money than no money at all.
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Again....as Steelrails pointed out, life is not fair. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer....this is how the world has always run, runs now, and always will run. It is only the relative concept of what is rich and what is poor that changes....a poor person today is better off than a poor person in 1850, but the structure is the same.
The price of housing will only go up if people can afford to pay it....if there is nobody who can afford the price of housing, then the price will fall...so, clearly people have the money to pay for this increase in housing prices or the increases would simply never come about as landlords will lower the price on vacant units until they find a renter/buyer.
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So the problem is most people can afford it, but we are paying more and more each year. The rent on my place is going up to 800,000 a month this year. Any reason they need to raise it? The problem is I don't have many options unless I want to move to a lousy area (where the price also probably went up as well) so I have to cough up the money. Yes I can afford it, but each year housing is eating up a bigger percentage of my salary.
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Everyone would like to earn more money, this is a given. Across the board salaries DO increase with inflation, perhaps not at the exact same moment but they do increase. I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that if you were to provide me with a print-out of your yearly income over the past 5 years (assuming they were all in Korea) that your income has indeed increased to keep pace with inflation.
You have a very naive view/understanding of the world my friend....it is best that you stay in education and never enter the world of business. |
So like you said, salaries do increase with inflation, and in this thread I was simply trying to figure out when that will happen. But apparently according to steelrails, I have to find a better job, invest in stock, grow my own garden, hand wash my own clothes, make my own furniture, buy cheap goods, not buy fabreeze, and describe a process in detail about getting this extra money instead. But as you said, salaries increase with inflation, so why aren't you arguing with your new butt buddy about that?
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| If Slowmotion had been a student at my uni back then, undoubtedly he would have been one of the numb nuts to march in both rallies. Even if he couldn't afford Febreeze to 'clean' his clothes before the rally....actually this was well before the days of Febreeze. |
Look I know you and steelrails had your difference in the past, but please don't attack me for asking questions in here and trying to get an answer just because you want to kiss steelrails arse and try to kiss and make up. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
1) You are living in one of the more densely populated "large" countries in the world (@50 million). Not only is it densely populated, but its mountainous (arable land) and everything that is imported has to come by sea. It's neighbors are a starving country to the North, behind which is a country with 1.4 billion consumers and a tundra of a nation next to it. The other close country is a densely populated island nation of 100 million. Beyond that everything comes from a significant distance.
Yes, food is not going to be cheap here. Considering those things, I'm happy its as cheap as it is.
The same people complaining about prices are the same people who complain about the price of gas and dirty polluting petroleum and how we need biofuels. This is what happens. You could always have "Drilled, Baby, Drilled". (Not that I agree with this, just folks can;t have their cake and eat it too)
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| Everything is going up, but when is our salary going to start going up to offset this? |
Rely on your employer or government to ensure a climbing wage and you're in for trouble. Rely on yourself to pursue opportunities and earn promotion, and you'll be on better ground.
It's also incumbent upon us to change our lifestyle and cut costs.
Free Lunch Time is over. |
I agree about relying on yourself. Education in Korea is in many ways a sales position. If you want to make more money, sell more.
But as for equating people complaining about high food prices in Korea with Americans promoting biofuels you're, as usual, off base. Most Americans realize corn-based ethanol is not the way to go; it's the farmers and other entrenched special interest groups who are keeping corn-based ethanol alive.
Food is not cheap in Korea. And it's not just it's geography that makes that so. for example, why is fish so expensive in a country surrounded by water? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The western developed countries have been importing cheap food from the developing world for hundreds of years. |
I don't think things could approach anything called moral for all but the last 25 of those years.
And again none of those countries is in the same trade position as Korea- Korea is much farther away, hasn't had the historical bases of operation in those countries, is much more geographically isolated, and has far fewer trading partners in immediate proximity. That and its economy is much more export driven which means importing products will be a touch more expensive.
But yes, perhaps Korea should support supply-side economic policies like those favored by George W. Bush and his fellows.
| Quote: |
| meanwhile, an effective government should work at putting reasonably priced food on the shelves for their own population |
Groceries may be pricier here, but I don't think I could find anything comparable to a KimBap restaurant back home serving those kinds of prices. As long as I can get a thing of JaeYookDupBap for $3 I'll have no complaints about the food prices here. The only prepared food you can get for $3 back home is McD's and Taco Bell.
Also, it seems Korea's food prices are much more affected by the seasons. That and it seems like Koreans know where to find the bargains at that we sometimes aren't aware of. I also think if one followed a more traditional Korean diet that the prices of certain things would not be as high.
And of course there was the bad weather this year+Foot&Mouth.
I also don't think there is anything going on in terms of food prices that warrants any further government intervention beyond FTAs and the like, which the Korean government has been on the ball with this year. Be patient, price relief in theory should be coming. |
I wonder how much the FTAs will help. The price of wine went down for a bit after the Chile FTA but it seems to have now increased to actually higher than before the FTA.
As for Koreans finding bargains, yes and no. Foreigners aren't filling up Costco; Koreans are. Koreans are able to barter goods and services in ways foreigners can't/don't. And they can buy fruit direct from farmers through farmers' relatives, but I'm not sure how much cheaper that is because the motivation is mostly to buy better and healthier fruit.
Following a traditional Korean diet isn't a legitimate answer. Look around at the bent over old folks who followed a traditional diet or at the height difference between recent and older generations. |
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BoholDiver
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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In Korea?
Canteloupe: 3000 won at its lowest
Honeydew: unsure
Mangoes: 2 for 5,000 (PI) or 2 for 10,000 (Thai)
Apples: 5 for 3000 (low quality) or 2000 each (best quality)
Bananas: 1200 a kg when on sale, regular price, 2500 won per kilo
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| bobbybigfoot wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| it may not be 50% flat across, but it was substantial. |
What does this mean?
That prices are 50% cheaper in the US? |
I'm looking at a photo I took in a market right now...
San Fran one year ago:
Cateloupe Melons - 2 for $1
Honeydw Melons - 2 for $5
Mangoes - 2 for $1
All Apples - 79 to 99 cents a pound
Bananas - 2lbs for $1
Anyone want to compare that to Korean prices? |
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Skyblue
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| willteachforfood wrote: |
| Salaries in nearly every field across the board are determined by supply and demand... |
As if. That's why unionized ticket collectors on commuter trains in Toronto make 60K a year. That's why bankers make more than cancer researchers and nuclear physicists.
There are lots of things influencing salaries, and it's not just high demand for relatively scarce commodity like bankers. It's that bankers get their history degrees from Ivy League colleges and then are set up through their parents' connections.
Their salaries correspond in no way to either their capacity to provide technical know-how or their ability to add value to the economy.
"Life's not fair." Right, so we should do a little something to make it fairer.
Starting with eating scrambled bankers' testes with baked beans on toast.
Breakfast of champions! |
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Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| Skyblue wrote: |
| willteachforfood wrote: |
| Salaries in nearly every field across the board are determined by supply and demand... |
As if. That's why unionized ticket collectors on commuter trains in Toronto make 60K a year. That's why bankers make more than cancer researchers and nuclear physicists.
There are lots of things influencing salaries, and it's not just high demand for relatively scarce commodity like bankers. It's that bankers get their history degrees from Ivy League colleges and then are set up through their parents' connections.
Their salaries correspond in no way to either their capacity to provide technical know-how or their ability to add value to the economy.
"Life's not fair." Right, so we should do a little something to make it fairer.
Starting with eating scrambled bankers' testes with baked beans on toast.
Breakfast of champions! |
your post is essentially correct, but you omit the key aspect of "can this person make me or the firm money".
that's who gets paid the most money, (outside of unionized/distorted arrangements like your Toronto subway eg)
that's why musicians make fortunes. that's why movie actors can make fortunes. that's why sports stars make fortunes without any of these people making significant contributions to society at large.
since the average banker brings in more money than your average cancer researcher of nuclear physicist, they make a lot more money. |
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Louis VI
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Location: In my Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:01 am Post subject: |
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Steaks at 5000 won each thanks to U.S. beef trade deals means I get meat cheaper than ever in all my years here.
I never look at the price of fruit and veggies, just get the freshest and what I want because I'm not a pinch pennies kind of guy and still find it easy to save money while eating well. |
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willteachforfood
Joined: 24 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| Skyblue wrote: |
| As if. That's why unionized ticket collectors on commuter trains in Toronto make 60K a year. That's why bankers make more than cancer researchers and nuclear physicists. |
Wrong-o buckshot....unionized ticket collectors on commuter trains in Toronto make 60K per year PRECISELY because of SUPPLY and DEMAND, not in spite of it!!!
How do you think unions work? Where do they get their power from? Guess what.....by manipulating supply. By banding together and forcing out their competition (by means of force or many other union tactics) they diminish supply and therefore increase their value in the market.
The fact that unions manipulate the system is irrelevant, as it is indeed supply and demand that gives them the ability to get this power and manipulate the system.
Now...I am not altogether against unions, but don't think for a second that supply and demand doesn't dictate the salaries that they can command....demand enough money and the firm will eventually take measures to break the union. The reason that the firm pays the higher wage is once again, not out of the kindness of their heart, but because it is cheaper for them to pay this higher wage than it is to break the union.
Furthermore, your analogy of researchers and physicists is also false....whatever pay these folks receive is based entirely off supply and demand. Either there are more qualified researchers looking for work than you think, or less of a demand for researchers than you think. Same goes for physicists.....how many brilliant people get degrees in Physics every year for a very limited number of jobs? This lack of jobs drives the salaries down.
| Quote: |
| There are lots of things influencing salaries, and it's not just high demand for relatively scarce commodity like bankers. It's that bankers get their history degrees from Ivy League colleges and then are set up through their parents' connections. |
Blah, blah...yes, there is nepotism in business....but guess what, this happens at every level, whether it be at the CEO level or getting your buddy a job at Domino's Pizza....my guess is that you've had the inside track to a job more than once in your life. Whether or not nepotism is fair or not is besides the point....while there are 'some' people in high ranking positions who don't deserve to be there....most of them do, and if their banks/companies don't make money then they are replaced with someone who can make money for the company....sure, some lucky dogs like George Bush can fail and fail and still get paid, but these situations are out liers. If you've got the skills to make millions and millions for a bank, guess what, get into the banking industry and I bet that within a decade you'll be up at the top. Companies don't hold down people who make them tons of money, regardless of what your Tom Clancy novels tell you. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Cigarettes: Korea 2500 won. U.S. 7 bucks a pack.
Beer: Korea 5500 for a 40 oz. U.S. Still $2.99+deposit
Cheap Korea
Contacts & Glasses
Basic Medical Care
Taxis&Buses
Non-Fast Food Restaurant Meals
Get Drunk Liquor
Service- No Tipping
Iced Coffee. A single can of cola.
Expensive Korea
Meat
Poultry
Gasoline
Cars
Fruits
Beer
Non-blinding liquor |
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Lee Myung Bak
Joined: 25 Jun 2010
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Cigarettes: Korea 2500 won. U.S. 7 bucks a pack.
Beer: Korea 5500 for a 40 oz. U.S. Still $2.99+deposit
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wrong, 5500 is for 1.6L bottles, which is 54 ounces. Also that is the price at 7/11/GS25 etc. The same 54 ounce bottles are 3800 at emart, homeplus or larger neighborhood supermarkets. Thats essentially the same price for content.
Domestic 6 packs in Korea are around 7000. Thats the same as domestic 6 packs in the States.
You're right on the cigs though, huge difference there. |
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