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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
Does anyone agree that we are seeing the end of the era of crazy dictators?
Criminals like gaddafi are dinosaurs that have suddenly been overtaken by the electronic information age.
Its appalling that monsters like him have been allowed to stay in power for 40+ years. Human society progressed far too slowly. |
The desire to change things overnight creates its own set of problems.
People should be patient. It took most countries centuries of abject horror to create the democratic societies they have now, and event then many of them have serious problems with immigration or their economy or are engaged in wars of aggression.
Expecting the rest of the world to do things overnight is impatient folly. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:07 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like Libya is having a civil war
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TOBRUK, Libya � Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi of Libya kept his grip on the capital on Wednesday, but large areas of the east of the country remained out of his control amid indications that the fighting had reached the northwest of the country around Tripoli.
Libyans fleeing across the country�s western border to Tunisia reported fighting over the past two nights in the town of Sabratha, home of an important Roman archeological site 50 miles west of Tripoli. Reuters reported that thousands of Libyan forces loyal to Col. Qaddafi had deployed there. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| I read that there are foreign mercenary groups using sniper rifles in the cities. Would the government sink so low? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| I read that there are foreign mercenary groups using sniper rifles in the cities. Would the government sink so low? |
If, by the government you mean the qadaffi clan, I would guess the answer is yes. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| I read that there are foreign mercenary groups using sniper rifles in the cities. Would the government sink so low? |
I've heard that black militia (it's not really known if they are foreign, or southern Libyan) are being forced to march ahead and shoot people. If they cannot bring themselves to shoot, they are shot and burnt by the Libyan forces walking behind them.
I've also seen some disturbing footage of black soldiers going down a street and going into houses and supposedly killing the inhabitants inside - with one report that they shot children returning from school. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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^ Incredible.
If I were MQ I'd be thinking hard about an exit now. Even if I was able to defeat the immediate threat the relationship between the state and citizens has been permanently altered for the worse. Whatever tranquility MQ enjoyed before this uprising is surely gone.
Why not simply bail? I am sure he has billions stashed away in Swiss etc accounts. Many states would take him. I don't get it. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
Why not simply bail? I am sure he has billions stashed away in Swiss etc accounts. Many states would take him. I don't get it. |
Reports say he's a micromanager who scrutinizes all government contracts worth more than $200 million, is a voracious consumer of news, and handpicks underlings of his underlings.
He loves his "job." |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Anybody else notice that he is really weird? I'm sure most all-powerful dictators have their proclivities, but MQ is a nutter.
...
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=209540
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Exiled Libyan opposition figure Hadi Shalluf claimed that international organizations that are following developments in Libya know of over 10,000 deaths and around 50,000 people injured in the past week of ongoing anti-government protests, Israel Radio reported.
Shalluf, a lawyer who lives in France and is a counsel at the International Criminal Court in the Hague, called on every unit in the Libyan army to join the effort to depose the Muammar Gaddafi, in an interview with Al Arabiya, according to the report. |
I assume that's an exaggerated number. I hope it is. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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I can't wait for the oppressed masses of Cuba & North Korea to take to the streets as well.
Time is ripe for the suffering proles to throw off the chains imposed by their socialist "liberators".
Anyone note that Chavez has been backing the ''mad dog''(right on, Ronnie) of North Africa? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
^ Incredible.
If I were MQ I'd be thinking hard about an exit now. Even if I was able to defeat the immediate threat the relationship between the state and citizens has been permanently altered for the worse. Whatever tranquility MQ enjoyed before this uprising is surely gone.
Why not simply bail? I am sure he has billions stashed away in Swiss etc accounts. Many states would take him. I don't get it. |
Because that would be too rational I suppose. He's barking mad. It's like watching a horror film, except that it doesn't finish after 2 hours. It seems to me he wants vengence - he's taking the uprising really personally. A Libyan friend explained that his family are safe - why? Because no-one in that neighbourhood is known to have protested against him. Apparantly (so my friend believes) he's wreaking revenge on anyone in a neighbourhood known to have been the residence of protesters. I guess that could explain the reports of militia just going into streets and killing women and children.
There's a protest tomorrow in the city square - my friend called me to ask me to come (won't - don't want to bring small kids to it) - and said that he had listened to one of Qadaffi's broadcasts in which he apparantly says he will wipe out the whole country if necessary, and repopulate it with people from the desert. If that's true (I've been keeping an eye out for a report that confirms it but haven't yet found one) it's more evidence of someone utterly out of touch with reality - taking egoecentricity to new heights!
The Guardian has a blog with live updates:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/feb/24/libya-gaddafi-turmoil-obama
There is now talk of Eastern European mercenaries shooting people.
I remember years ago reading about the uprising in Hungary, and how soviet troops were too sympathetic to the Hungarian protesters. The Soviets learnt a lesson, and from then on they never used European Russians to put down Europeans, or Asians to put down Asians. They always used different races, because they'd have less empathy for their victims. Perhaps Qaddaffi understood this well, as it appears he has been cultivating these foreign mercenaries for years. The Libyan army are mutineering, but the mercenaries remain loyal - of course, it's not their country and presumably they are being well paid for their services.
But his strategy may have backfired on him:
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Gaddafi's reported use of mercenaries appears to have tipped the hand of many protesters and armed forces. "That is why we turned against the government," said air force major Rajib Feytouni. "That and the fact that there was an order to use planes to attack the people."
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/23/inside-libya-banghazi-jubilation
It will have terrible consequences for black Africans in Libya though - as they are already badly treated - and they may now be passionately hated for what the mercenaries have done, even if they are just innocent bystanders. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:06 am Post subject: |
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Muammar Gaddafi: method in his 'madness'
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| Gaddafi has lost touch with his people, but though his actions may seem bizarre, there is a kind of logic to his behaviour |
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"People of Libya!" the broadcast began, "In response to your own will, fulfilling your most heartfelt wishes, answering your incessant demands for change and regeneration ... your armed forces have undertaken the overthrow of the reactionary and corrupt regime, the stench of which has sickened and horrified us all. At a single blow your gallant army has toppled these idols and has destroyed their images ... From this day forward, Libya is a free, self-governing republic."
It was 1 September 1969, and the young army captain seated at the microphone to announce the coup was Muammar Gaddafi � then only 27 and a fervent admirer of the Nasserist revolution in neighbouring Egypt. Yesterday, he was again broadcasting to the nation and this time the tables were turned. It is no longer the "decadent regime" of King Idris under attack, but that of Gaddafi himself.
In the four decades since he came to power, Gaddafi's behaviour has shocked and amused the world in roughly equal measures � from his bizarre sense of fashion to his appearance on Monday leaning out of something resembling a popemobile and holding a white umbrella. As a Jordanian psychiatrist once told me while we watched Gaddafi's televised performance at an Arab summit: "I meet people like him every day in my hospital." |
Ha, made me chuckle.
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| But mad as they may seem, his actions usually have some kind of logic, even if it's a logic that others, not attuned to the Gaddafi way of thinking, fail to recognise. When he drove through Africa throwing money out of his car window, he was making a serious point: foreign aid is often misused or ends up in the wrong hands, so why not just let ordinary people pick it up off the street? |
etc |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Many states would take him. I don't get it. |
Maybe not.
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Rumours abound that members of Gaddafi's family are trying to flee abroad. Although William Hague's ramblings about Gaddafi's flight to Venezuela have been disproved, I spoke to a number of Libyans who believed that Burkina Faso might be his only viable retreat. Two nights ago, a Libyan private jet approached Beirut airport with a request to land but was refused permission when the crew declined to identify their eight passengers. And last night, a Libyan Arab Airlines flight reported by Al Jazeera to be carrying Gaddafi's daughter, Aisha, was refused permission to land in Malta.
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http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/tripoli-a-city-in-the-shadow-of-death-2223977.html |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Many states would take him. I don't get it. |
Maybe not.
| Quote: |
Rumours abound that members of Gaddafi's family are trying to flee abroad. Although William Hague's ramblings about Gaddafi's flight to Venezuela have been disproved, I spoke to a number of Libyans who believed that Burkina Faso might be his only viable retreat. Two nights ago, a Libyan private jet approached Beirut airport with a request to land but was refused permission when the crew declined to identify their eight passengers. And last night, a Libyan Arab Airlines flight reported by Al Jazeera to be carrying Gaddafi's daughter, Aisha, was refused permission to land in Malta.
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http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/tripoli-a-city-in-the-shadow-of-death-2223977.html |
If he hadn't gone over the edge, I bet Italy would have accepted him. And Saudi doesn't seem to have any qualms in hosting dictators. |
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Mosley
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Certainly, the Saudis have no qualms about hosting dictators on the run(hello, Idi Amin). Bucheon Bum is right on about that.
The possibility of civil war(s) in the countries with unrest is very real...secular/religious, Sunni/Shiite, moderate pro-Western/anti-Western, tribal/the 'other" tribal/nationalist(this might already be a big factor in Libya), citizen/foreigner, etc., etc.
I can't agree with Big Bird's unnamed source claiming European Russian troop "sympathy" with the Hungarian freedom fighters. 1956 Hungary was a bloody affair compared with, say, the invasion of Czechoslovakia in '68. There's precious little evidence that there was any shortage of European Russian troops rolling into Czechoslovakia in the late summer of '68. Moreover, troops from Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria and East Germany joined in on the invasion. Pretty European, wot? True, the East Germans didn't hang around long but that's likely because the Soviets told them to take a powder lest they...ahem...remind the world of National Socialist "liberations" of that unfortunate country in the 1930s. |
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