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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| Perhaps it would help if you checked to see which nation spends the highest percentage of GDP on education. That would be the U.S. Please name a major technological innovation developed outside the U.S. A temporary downturn, all part of the business cycle does not mean a nation is in decline. Most are still jealous of the U.s. and it's wealth and power. |
Have you seen the film? |
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Patrick Bateman
Joined: 21 Apr 2009
Location: Lost in Translation
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| kimchi_pizza wrote: |
| interestedinhanguk wrote: |
| That's ridiculous. People were still drinking out of water fountains based on color and blacks rode in the back of the bus. Yea, sure, it's better than slavery. But seriously, calling it good in any way is ridiculous. Go ask 10 black people who lived through the 50s if that was a good time for them. |
It was good in that it provided a challenge to the black race which they understood and stood up to. And suceeded to.
Sorry hanguk that you seem to take this so personally when I have a feeling you're neither black nor white but simply want to vent based on your own ill treatment. It happens to us all. Even I, a stereotypical "w.a.s.p.", was wrongfully arrested and incarcerated but I hold no ill will. |
Let me see if I follow your logic.
1940's and 50's America was a good time for everyone.
It was even good for people that are often considered to have suffered (minorities) because they had a challenge to stand up to.
Ergo:
In present day America the majority of people are often considered to be suffering in some way and have a challenge to stand up to.
Present day America is an AMAZING time for everyone.
| kimchi_pizza wrote: |
It was a trully great time for Americans, but do you know why? We, I mean I'm American as well, won a great war. "To the victor belong the spoils" and we gained a great victory and great wealth. But that wealth , taken from Nazi Germany, once belonged to slain Jews. That's why the U.S. is beholden to Jewish interests wether we like it or not. |
Let me get this straight, Post World War II America flourished economically because of contra-banded Jewish wealth? And, you think America is so invested in Israel because the gold fillings taken from Holocaust victims made the U.S. the number 1 superpower? |
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| Perhaps it would help if you checked to see which nation spends the highest percentage of GDP on education. That would be the U.S. Please name a major technological innovation developed outside the U.S. A temporary downturn, all part of the business cycle does not mean a nation is in decline. Most are still jealous of the U.s. and it's wealth and power. |
This thread is an interesting mish-mash of optimism and pessimism. I don't think America's done for yet. I think it's on the whole a good country. However, there seems to be this rather infantile zero-sum mentality held that if America is eclipsed, then that is the end of everything. Powers long before have been eclipsed and still done fine. It reminds me more of the panic in Britain in the late 19th century when there was basically a panic over the same thing as the US and Germany started to catch up. Despite the doom and gloomers, Britian is, by and large, still an ok place. Average standard of living is better now than when the British Empire covered 25% of the landmass of the Earth.
However with regards technological innovation...
How far back do you want to go, rollo, old chap? An utterly ahistorical view of human progress seems to be an export that the US still leads the world in 
The industrial revolution itself was a foreign import to the States. Just a cursory bit of messing around on the net reveals that there are far more major, even modern, technological innovations made outside the US than you would seem to acknowledge. Secondly, the US also spends the highest proportion of GDP on health care, yet has lower life expectancy than much of Europe, and is full of ghastly obese people. The average American, sadly, is renowned for his ignorance abroad. American popular culture is generally synonymous with shallowness. That it is indeed popular globally is more of a comment on the low-quality of global humanity generally.  |
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Patrick Bateman
Joined: 21 Apr 2009
Location: Lost in Translation
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| chellovek wrote: |
| It reminds me more of the panic in Britain in the late 19th century when there was basically a panic over the same thing as the US and Germany started to catch up. |
Wow, you were alive back then? That is a true testament to the British healthcare system. 
| chellovek wrote: |
The industrial revolution itself was a foreign import to the States. Just a cursory bit of messing around on the net reveals that there are far more major, even modern, technological innovations made outside the US than you would seem to acknowledge. Secondly, the US also spends the highest proportion of GDP on health care, yet has lower life expectancy than much of Europe, and is full of ghastly obese people. The average American, sadly, is renowned for his ignorance abroad. American popular culture is generally synonymous with shallowness. That it is indeed popular globally is more of a comment on the low-quality of global humanity generally. |
Isn't every country's pop culture generally synonymous with shallowness though? |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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The thing that really struck a nerve about "Waiting for Superman" with me was that it placed the responsibility of education, solely on the teachers and schools.
To me, it really didn't address the lack of investment from communities and families in the US education system. Look at a country like Korea. Families here are BATSH!T crazy about education. They see the value in sending their children to school. To the point where they overvalue it and it takes away a lot of a student's childhood.
I think America needs to aim for half way between where we are now and how Korea approaches education. We need to get rid of the 2 and a half month long summer break. This is so ridiculously damaging to students, I don't understand why it continues. We no longer need children working on farms in the summer. Knowledge rentention is severely hampered by this long break.
We need to focus on closing the achievement gap. But again, I think just focusing on getting "good" (whatever that means) teachers into struggling schools is only one of three things that needs to happen.
1. Families need to value education more
2. Education needs to be changed to provide a worthwhile return on investment that reflects the labor needs of 2020 and onward.
3. More effective teachers need to be placed in classrooms. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Whites, Asians (South and East) and Jews do just fine in American schools. They excel by any international measure. Let's be exact when talking about the problem. The problem is educating Mexicans and Africans. The problem is closing the achievement gap in a country that is going to be 50% NAM (non Asian minority) in short order. How do schools in Mexico and Africa create Nobel chemists? Figure that out and copy it. There. I solved the problem. |
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chellovek
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Bateman wrote: |
Isn't every country's pop culture generally synonymous with shallowness though? |
Yeah you're quite right, it is. |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Whites, Asians (South and East) and Jews do just fine in American schools. They excel by any international measure. Let's be exact when talking about the problem. The problem is educating Mexicans and Africans. The problem is closing the achievement gap in a country that is going to be 50% NAM (non Asian minority) in short order. How do schools in Mexico and Africa create Nobel chemists? Figure that out and copy it. There. I solved the problem. |
I think you should be placing more emphasis on socioeconomic background than on race.
Your question should say:
How do impoverished kids with limited to no resources, families and communities who don't care about education, who live in a literacy vacuum, and who have unqualified/apathetic/jaded teachers learn something that will help them improve their quality of life when they enter the work force? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| jrwhite82 wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Whites, Asians (South and East) and Jews do just fine in American schools. They excel by any international measure. Let's be exact when talking about the problem. The problem is educating Mexicans and Africans. The problem is closing the achievement gap in a country that is going to be 50% NAM (non Asian minority) in short order. How do schools in Mexico and Africa create Nobel chemists? Figure that out and copy it. There. I solved the problem. |
I think you should be placing more emphasis on socioeconomic background than on race.
Your question should say:
How do impoverished kids with limited to no resources, families and communities who don't care about education, who live in a literacy vacuum, and who have unqualified/apathetic/jaded teachers learn something that will help them improve their quality of life when they enter the work force? |
Its impossible for public schooling to close the socioeconomic achievement gap. Even Obama gets this and has spoken about it: education starts and is reinforced in the home. And the proclivity for educational achievement is not equally distributed among parents. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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I could say that, but I'm not a hippie.
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| How to impoverished kids with limited to no resources, families and communities who don't care about education, who live in a literacy vacuum, and who have unqualified/apathetic/jaded teachers... |
With the exception of families who do not care, you've described a FOTB Asian. There is no Asian education crisis.
The government can not fix parents. The schools can not fix parents.
Maybe, just maybe, we're expecting too much. Not everybody needs to be a doctor. There is demand at good wages for trades. The US needs to test for competency and then use tracking and stop being hysterical about the achievement gap.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracking_%28education%29
http://takimag.com/article/guggenheims_waiting_for_superman_is_shoddy_filmmaking_at_best2/print
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This bad schools-bad teachers-bad unions idea (what the Chinese might call the Three Bads Theory) is now such conventional wisdom that few reviewers have noticed that this documentary fails to document visually its own thesis. I kept waiting for �Superman� to turn into an expos� featuring shocking classroom footage of bad teachers ruining the lives of innocent children. Yet, Guggenheim apparently finds his message too self-evident to bother shooting video that illustrates it. The main way I could distinguish between the bad neighborhood schools and the good charter schools shown in �Superman� is from the disapproving narration, unsettling camera angles, and ominous soundtrack versus the warm lighting and chirpy tone of voice.
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The Three Bads Theory lets liberal parents rationalize their white flight by publicly blaming teachers while they privately shun black and Latino students. |
I reckon that's pretty accurate. I am no fan of teachers unions, but only for fiscal reasons. I had good teachers and bad teachers and I plugged along just fine regardless. At the end of the day I came home to a family that was militant in academic expectations. |
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warmachinenkorea
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| jrwhite82 wrote: |
The thing that really struck a nerve about "Waiting for Superman" with me was that it placed the responsibility of education, solely on the teachers and schools.
To me, it really didn't address the lack of investment from communities and families in the US education system. Look at a country like Korea. Families here are BATSH!T crazy about education. They see the value in sending their children to school. To the point where they overvalue it and it takes away a lot of a student's childhood.
I think America needs to aim for half way between where we are now and how Korea approaches education. We need to get rid of the 2 and a half month long summer break. This is so ridiculously damaging to students, I don't understand why it continues. We no longer need children working on farms in the summer. Knowledge rentention is severely hampered by this long break.
We need to focus on closing the achievement gap. But again, I think just focusing on getting "good" (whatever that means) teachers into struggling schools is only one of three things that needs to happen.
1. Families need to value education more
2. Education needs to be changed to provide a worthwhile return on investment that reflects the labor needs of 2020 and onward.
3. More effective teachers need to be placed in classrooms. |
I like the way you put the above things into perspective. I've heard many people talk about how this film made them angry and depressed. The thing I saw in the film was people saying "If my child gets into XYZ school then they will have a better life." This is exactly what Korea does. Get into the right HS means getting into the right Uni which means I'm set for life. At home in America hardwork can get you in farther than most people want to realize. Most people just sit back and do jack then wait for someone to help them then complain no one is helping them. I had 2 drug addict parents and was the first person in my family to go to college. I have a friend who grew up as poor as anyone I've ever known. He has never let anything or anyone stand in his way of bettering his life. He did by hardwork.
"Waiting for Superman" is the best title for this film. Just keep waiting because he's not coming. |
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sadguy
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Whites, Asians (South and East) and Jews do just fine in American schools. They excel by any international measure. Let's be exact when talking about the problem. The problem is educating Mexicans and Africans. The problem is closing the achievement gap in a country that is going to be 50% NAM (non Asian minority) in short order. How do schools in Mexico and Africa create Nobel chemists? Figure that out and copy it. There. I solved the problem. |
whites do just fine? that's a very very broad generalization. do poor whites do as well as their upper middle class counterparts do? |
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warmachinenkorea
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| sadguy wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Whites, Asians (South and East) and Jews do just fine in American schools. They excel by any international measure. Let's be exact when talking about the problem. The problem is educating Mexicans and Africans. The problem is closing the achievement gap in a country that is going to be 50% NAM (non Asian minority) in short order. How do schools in Mexico and Africa create Nobel chemists? Figure that out and copy it. There. I solved the problem. |
whites do just fine? that's a very very broad generalization. do poor whites do as well as their upper middle class counterparts do? |
No they don't. Poor whites are in the same boat as minorities. |
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sadguy
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| (i know! but this (rhetorical) question was directed at mises....) |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Whites and Asians outperform blacks of similar economic status. Poor whites perform approximately 1stdev better than poor blacks. The trend holds at all income levels. The data is widely available for you to confirm this.
In fact, poor whites perform similar to middle class blacks:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/report-black-boys-lagging-badly-in-school
Poor whites are outperformed by poor Asians and middle (and up) classes of whites. Poor whites none the less score very well by international (OECD) measure. Poverty, for whites, does not mean failing at school.
...
The schools and teachers are not the problem. Waiting for Superman is a distraction. There is no superman.
How many non Asian minorities come home to a father who will whip their ass for slacking off? Can we control for that? |
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