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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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| Is it better to teach at a hagwon, a private school, or a public school? |
| Hagwon |
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16% |
[ 3 ] |
| Public School |
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55% |
[ 10 ] |
| Private School |
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27% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 18 |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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 Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| lrlpalmer wrote: |
I am certified teacher, 2 years of experience, plus I'm nearly finished my M.Ed (all coursework and internship/practicum complete, just finishing up my thesis research).
Would it still be difficult for me to land an international school job? I'm thinking probably, right?... I have never seen any advertised either.
I've heard so many people say that there are good hagwons, good public schools, good all-types-of-schools... but I've never heard anyone say what those schools are. I know they're out there, but where???
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They typically don't advertise on an ESL website (like this one). They are not ESL schools. (it would be like McD's advertising for fry cooks in the wall street journal - in reverse)
If you want a real teaching job abroad rather than jump onto the ESL bandwagon then look at places LIKE:
http://www.ibo.org , http://www.tes.co.uk/jobsHub.aspx and many others.
Do a google for international schools and international school recruiters.
You may also be VERY interested in looking at government schools in Taiwan or Hong Kong (NET program). For home country certified, native speaking English teachers they have a VERY nice package (pays better than most jobs in the states) with great benefits as well.
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CPJ
Joined: 30 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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For me, the biggest thing would be not knowing what I'm getting until I arrived in Korea. I think with most public schools, you don't get your placement until you arrive at orientation. You've already bought your ticket so they sort of have you committed.
The BADs that I've or friends have experienced:
-very small apartment compared to what most hagwon teachers get.
-30 minutes or even an hour bus ride away.
-bad location (no choice in the matter).
-too many students in a class and too different levels (some being fluent almost and others not even knowing their ABCs).
-very difficult principals or co-teachers
-old squatting bathrooms that female teachers would never use.
-no heat in the classrooms (very cold winters).
-no air-conditioning in the classrooms (30+ sweaty kids in the hot, humid summer)
Mind you, there are a lot of GOODies as well!
With most hagwons, you will talk to the teachers at the school so you know exactly how your day goes, how helpful or not the school is, what your apartment looks like, everything if you're willing to ask. Some hagwons suck, most are average, but some are excellent! You can pick and choose.
My first year was at a hagwon. I got lucky because even though I was a newbie and didn't ask any questions, the school and apartment were great.
My 2nd year, I thought I was moving up by getting a public school job but that was not the case. Many of the above details that I listed applied to me.
Since then, I've worked 6 years at 4 different hagwons. Ask enough questions and you can find a great school, great location and a great apartment. |
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DragonLover
Joined: 19 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Care to tell me the name of some of the GOOD hagwons you've worked at?  |
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RMNC
Joined: 21 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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It used to be public school. Now, it's pretty even between public and hagwons. Really it depends on whether or not you can handle teaching 30 kids at once or not. I know I can't. The same pitfalls exist at both places these days.
For my money, I'll never deal with the public school bureaucracy and office drama, the 30-35 kids per class, the often terrible apartments, the long commutes, the getting stuck in the boonies, the being the only person who doesn't speak Korean, and all that other stuff over more vacation days. I don't really ever take vacation or go anywhere anyways, I'd rather stay home and work on my music, go to the gym, meet up with women and go to clubs/shopping. That's why I prefer a hagwon. |
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decolyon
Joined: 24 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| red_devil wrote: |
You forgot the best gig -- University.  |
In house "English advisors" at some companies are probably the best gigs. Usually they hire two people per office. One comes in from 5 to lunch. The other comes in from lunch till 7 or 8. They are there to aide workers with some translation, pronunciation, and such. Early in the mornings and in the evenings they will hold "business English" classes in the conference rooms for a handful of employees at a time. At night they get taken out for drinks and dinner. They get paid really well. Some are pulling 5MKW a month and they get loads of vacation time. Seriously, like months and months a year off. If they go on a "business trip" with a few other coworkers to say Hawaii or Thailand to "advise and translate" that all gets covered by the company.
You're not going to see those advertised on here though. They're all gotten by "who you know." Helps to have a business degree as your BA. MBA is almost necessary. Years of experience with adults. Having written a book or two under your belt would open a few doors too.
Anyways, those rival the uni gigs I believe. Maybe a little more work in terms of hours at the job than unis, but loads and loads more perks. Did I mention the bonuses? |
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Slowmotion
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| RMNC wrote: |
It used to be public school. Now, it's pretty even between public and hagwons. Really it depends on whether or not you can handle teaching 30 kids at once or not. I know I can't. The same pitfalls exist at both places these days.
For my money, I'll never deal with the public school bureaucracy and office drama, the 30-35 kids per class, the often terrible apartments, the long commutes, the getting stuck in the boonies, the being the only person who doesn't speak Korean, and all that other stuff over more vacation days. I don't really ever take vacation or go anywhere anyways, I'd rather stay home and work on my music, go to the gym, meet up with women and go to clubs/shopping. That's why I prefer a hagwon. |
I find it quite the opposite. If you're working at a hagwon you're probably going to be working until 10pm or later. If you're trying to "meet" women as in going out for dinner or a date, this is usually past a time most women want to meet. Your dates are saved just for the weekends. But I'm guessing you mean meeting women at bars or whatever at night which a hagwon schedule would be better for since you can stay out late.
And just because you don't leave anywhere physically doesn't mean having the actual vacation days isn't necessary. I've been on vacation since mid January getting paid the same as my hagwon buddies who've been working this whole time. And technically you'd have more time to make your music on a public school schedule.
Other things about public schools
-I get more vacation time than my contract states (depends on the school though, still all better options than the 10 days most hagwons offer), I'd estimate I got 50 days holiday in the last year not including national holidays.
-I don't have to work holidays like people at hagwons.
-I don't have to work nights.
-I don't have to work weekends, ever.
-I've never been forced to work overtime.
-I get paid on time, every time.
-I don't need to worry about my pension or health insurance being paid.
-I only teach 3-4 classes a day on average, on top of all the days I don't have to teach for various reasons.
-I get breaks during the day which I can do whatever I want include sleeping, studying Korean, web surfing, working on my website or whatever else
-I get time to eat a meal
-Public schools are also looked at as a better job than hagwons by Koreans
-Can meet friends or go on dates on weekdays
Hagwon advantages:
-Can drink and party late almost any night of the week
-Can wake up late
-Smaller class size
-More foreigner coworkers which can be good for people who just got into the country and have no friends
-less prep (but sometimes have to come in early to prep and don't get paid for it)
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| decolyon wrote: |
| red_devil wrote: |
| You forgot the best gig -- University. |
In house "English advisors" at some companies are probably the best gigs. Usually they hire two people per office. One comes in from 5 to lunch. The other comes in from lunch till 7 or 8. They are there to aide workers with some translation, pronunciation, and such. Early in the mornings and in the evenings they will hold "business English" classes in the conference rooms for a handful of employees at a time. At night they get taken out for drinks and dinner. They get paid really well. Some are pulling 5MKW a month and they get loads of vacation time. Seriously, like months and months a year off. If they go on a "business trip" with a few other coworkers to say Hawaii or Thailand to "advise and translate" that all gets covered by the company.
You're not going to see those advertised on here though. They're all gotten by "who you know." Helps to have a business degree as your BA. MBA is almost necessary. Years of experience with adults. Having written a book or two under your belt would open a few doors too. |
I met a pimply faced 22 year old new grad from England that had a sweet gig like what you described, he worked near Daejeon. Most days he said he'd maybe work until noon and then some guy from work would take him out somewhere. He said he had a Korean roommate in University and that's how he was hooked up with that job. |
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RMNC
Joined: 21 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Slowmotion wrote: |
| Other things about public schools. |
Allow me to address a few of these points for a contrasting view. First, any of the ones that involve people getting screwed out of things (pension, pay) can be avoided by just doing research and finding a decent hagwon. Not that tough, and I've heard of people being screwed over on these same issues by public schools, not quite as commonly, but still noticeable.
And even when I was at the shady hagwons in my early time in Korea:
-I've always had the same holidays off as public school teachers.
-I've never had to work on weekends
-I've never had to work overtime if I didn't want to (very, very against the law)
-My latest night at a hagwon was 9 PM, which in Seoul is no big deal when it comes to going out and meeting up for dates, as the city is open 24/7 and so are the people. This city really deserves the "city that never sleeps" title.
-I've never been paid late.
The big advantages I see from people regarding public school is the vacation and the ability to go home after 5 PM. I guess that never mattered much to me, I've always been more of a night person, I love not having to wake up at the crack of dawn to go deal with 35 rowdy Korean elementary school children. Many people aren't allowed to go home early by their principals and have to stay from 9-5 every day, whereas I just have to be there from 2-8:30. Maybe there's more teaching time per day, but there's less overall time spent at school (if you're not let out early). The amount of crying that goes on in this forum regarding hagwons not paying severance/medical/pension/on time is a minority. Most hagwons pay all of that stuff on time. Otherwise they simply wouldn't exist.
But that's just my opinion. |
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Slowmotion
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| RMNC wrote: |
| Slowmotion wrote: |
| Other things about public schools. |
Allow me to address a few of these points for a contrasting view. First, any of the ones that involve people getting screwed out of things (pension, pay) can be avoided by just doing research and finding a decent hagwon.
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Finding a decent hagwon? Easier said than done. I think most people can agree with this.
| Quote: |
And even when I was at the shady hagwons in my early time in Korea:
-I've always had the same holidays off as public school teachers.
-I've never had to work on weekends
-I've never had to work overtime if I didn't want to (very, very against the law)
-My latest night at a hagwon was 9 PM, which in Seoul is no big deal when it comes to going out and meeting up for dates, as the city is open 24/7 and so are the people. This city really deserves the "city that never sleeps" title.
-I've never been paid late.
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How many of these things apply to other people who work at Hagwons? I'd say less than 30%
I also find that hard to believe you never had any those problems, yet labeled those hagwons as shady.
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| My latest night at a hagwon was 9 PM, which in Seoul is no big deal when it comes to going out and meeting up for dates, as the city is open 24/7 and so are the people. This city really deserves the "city that never sleeps" title. |
From my experience with Korean women, I think it'd be hard to find a girl willing to go on a 'date' after 9PM on a weeknight. But this obviously doesn't apply to 날라리s and party girls, which I wouldn't technically take on a 'date' unless you consider getting drunk together a 'date.'
| Quote: |
The big advantages I see from people regarding public school is the vacation and the ability to go home after 5 PM. I guess that never mattered much to me, I've always been more of a night person, I love not having to wake up at the crack of dawn to go deal with 35 rowdy Korean elementary school children. Many people aren't allowed to go home early by their principals and have to stay from 9-5 every day, whereas I just have to be there from 2-8:30. Maybe there's more teaching time per day, but there's less overall time spent at school (if you're not let out early).
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I think you got really lucky with a schedule like that. Not many people can say the same at hagwons. But as far as for the average hagwon teacher they might work less hours a day, but still at school more times a year. But from what I've seen, a lot of them basically work the same ammount of hours as public school teachers because some of them have to come 2 hours early to prep and are unpaid to do so (For example CDI).
| Quote: |
The amount of crying that goes on in this forum regarding hagwons not paying severance/medical/pension/on time is a minority. Most hagwons pay all of that stuff on time. Otherwise they simply wouldn't exist.
But that's just my opinion. |
I disagree with this logic. First many hagwons cease to exist, and new ones spring up (non chains).
Second, it's easy for them to keep bringing in warm bodies because people are desperate for jobs these days. Even the crappiest jobs with split shifts and low pay get applicants.
Third, threads related to people complaining about being cheated from their hagwon appear all the time year after year full of people who have had similar experiences in the very threads. |
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winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Public School vs. Hagwon vs. Private School |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| winterfall wrote: |
| Though you do get an extra week or so off for desk warming because private schools need to advertise / recruit students for next year. Public schools don't have to do that. |
The recruiting is dependent on area. So if the local authorities don't place students in high schools then the HS will have to recruit. The recruiting happens in both private and public schools. |
I didn't know public schools had to recruit.. that's interesting, I thought they were covered by the local district office. They shuffled around to accommodate demand so there was never a need for it. |
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winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
| lrlpalmer wrote: |
What about international schools? I don't know a whole lot about them either but I've heard they're the best option, albeit hard to get into.
Can anyone offer any specific recommendations for a GOOD school in Seoul? |
Unless you are certified as a teacher in your home country AND have a minimum of 2 years of verifiable classroom time after your certification it isn't going to happen.
IF you are in Korea AND you have some experience/connections THEN you'd have a better chance of landing a (last minute) university lecturer position (but they don't pay as well; on average less than 2 million but you only teach 12-15 classes per week).
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There was a post about this, some guy talked about hiring standards. You get points based on yrs of experience. Every year at a public school is 1 pt. OP worked at a hagwon so that's .5 per year. I'm too lazy to dig up the thread
Op there's another thread on here within the last 2 weeks talking about after school programs. You get most the perks like apartment but no pension, airfare, and I'm not sure about medical.
Your salary is same as a straight public school gig. It seems like fewer hours, mostly elementary kids if you can stomach them again, and freedom to teach whatever you want.
That'll give you plenty of time to do whatever you want, no deskwarming
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International school jobs usually do their recruiting abroad at job fairs and fly the teachers in. Its possible to get it in country but, it depends on how much risk and waiting time your willing to tolerate.
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Other types of schools are foreign language high schools. It's a lot of work but they pay a lot more than the run of the mill public high school. Foreign language schools are quasi-public schools. They're administered directly by the district office but usually handle all of their own hiring, Dave's has advertisements for them once in awhile. But if you've got the qualifications you mentioned, you should be able to get the job without problems.
The students are mostly advanced and you'll be doing test prep for the Sats, TOEFL, TOEIC, etc. on top of your normal classes. Most likely they're split it 50/ 50. You got english classes then do special test prep classes during school hours or after.
Typical pay for example at the Dongducheon Foreign language high school is on the GEPIK salary scale. But if you worked at say the KAIST high school in Busan, they pay almost 3 million starting salary with an extra 200 a month per yr of experience + a living stipend if you've got your own place. This is for foreign teachers which you'll be, they got a separate and much more generous incentive package for people with their doctorates. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Public School vs. Hagwon vs. Private School |
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| winterfall wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| winterfall wrote: |
| Though you do get an extra week or so off for desk warming because private schools need to advertise / recruit students for next year. Public schools don't have to do that. |
The recruiting is dependent on area. So if the local authorities don't place students in high schools then the HS will have to recruit. The recruiting happens in both private and public schools. |
I didn't know public schools had to recruit.. that's interesting, I thought they were covered by the local district office. They shuffled around to accommodate demand so there was never a need for it. |
It all depends on the local office. Some areas the students are randomly placed, in others you apply to your preferred school. If you ever worked in a middle school you will always see nice high schools brochures placed on the 3rd year middle school teacher's desks in December, many of the recruiting high schools are out of district too. Also, students always have the option of going to an out of district high school.
As far as students and we NET's are concerned, there is very little difference between most public and private schools. And the local office can block the firing of private school staff. And keep in mind the government do fund private schools too, private schools are a relic of the past in Korea and the government can't just take them over as long as someone still 'owns' it. |
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winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: Public School vs. Hagwon vs. Private School |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
If you ever worked in a middle school you will always see nice high schools brochures placed on the 3rd year middle school teacher's desks in December, many of the recruiting high schools are out of district too. Also, students always have the option of going to an out of district high school.
As far as students and we NET's are concerned, there is very little difference between most public and private schools. And the local office can block the firing of private school staff. And keep in mind the government do fund private schools too, private schools are a relic of the past in Korea and the government can't just take them over as long as someone still 'owns' it. |
That's weird I work at a private school. I thought I understood things worked a bit differently. That when schools recruit out of district it always means its a private school. Public schools aren't allowed to take students outside of their district, much less outside city lines. Their priority is whoever is in the district, even though you choose to go to that school. If it's a ps there's no guarantee they're let you in because you don't live in the area.
At my school more than 80% of the students at my school don't come from this area. They come from other parts of Seoul. About 20% live pretty far into gyeonggi-do too. They just commute every morning.
I think it's good for FTs know about these things, its big hint on student abilities and the quality of education they got. Students from Seoul are about 2 levels higher than someone that commutes everyday from the Gyeonggi do. If they're from the boonies, it's about a 4 level difference. Even the English hagwons away from seoul are lower quality and more expensive. And certain areas of seoul are generally better than others. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:49 am Post subject: Re: Public School vs. Hagwon vs. Private School |
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| winterfall wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
If you ever worked in a middle school you will always see nice high schools brochures placed on the 3rd year middle school teacher's desks in December, many of the recruiting high schools are out of district too. Also, students always have the option of going to an out of district high school.
As far as students and we NET's are concerned, there is very little difference between most public and private schools. And the local office can block the firing of private school staff. And keep in mind the government do fund private schools too, private schools are a relic of the past in Korea and the government can't just take them over as long as someone still 'owns' it. |
That's weird I work at a private school. I thought I understood things worked a bit differently. That when schools recruit out of district it always means its a private school. Public schools aren't allowed to take students outside of their district, much less outside city lines. Their priority is whoever is in the district, even though you choose to go to that school. If it's a ps there's no guarantee they're let you in because you don't live in the area.
At my school more than 80% of the students at my school don't come from this area. They come from other parts of Seoul. About 20% live pretty far into gyeonggi-do too. They just commute every morning.
I think it's good for FTs know about these things, its big hint on student abilities and the quality of education they got. Students from Seoul are about 2 levels higher than someone that commutes everyday from the Gyeonggi do. If they're from the boonies, it's about a 4 level difference. Even the English hagwons away from seoul are lower quality and more expensive. And certain areas of seoul are generally better than others. |
I work in one of the provinces, so the norm here may differ from how things are usually done in Seoul/Gyeonggi. But you are right in that it's good to know for us FTs. Some Korean teachers may be good at speaking English and we tend to overestimate it, unfortunately the language barrier still limits our Koreans CTs from explaining some of the finer details to us. |
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RMNC
Joined: 21 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Slowmotion wrote: |
Finding a decent hagwon? Easier said than done. I think most people can agree with this.
As always, it's about doing research. Calling the current and former teachers will make things incredibly obvious. You can't do that most of the time at a public school.
How many of these things apply to other people who work at Hagwons? I'd say less than 30%
I would say it's probably a 50/50 split. The ones that don't have the problems are usually the ones who aren't fresh out of college frat boys and party girls looking to spend another year drunk. And those problems can happen at public schools too. It's really a toss up.
I also find that hard to believe you never had any those problems, yet labeled those hagwons as shady.
They were shady in their business legality practices, regarding their payments to the government and such, but they always paid me on time and gave me what I deserved. Maybe shady isn't the right word. Rogue?
I think you got really lucky with a schedule like that. Not many people can say the same at hagwons. But as far as for the average hagwon teacher they might work less hours a day, but still at school more times a year. But from what I've seen, a lot of them basically work the same ammount of hours as public school teachers because some of them have to come 2 hours early to prep and are unpaid to do so (For example CDI).
I would never work for a chain hagwon, I can tell you that much.
I disagree with this logic. First many hagwons cease to exist, and new ones spring up (non chains).
Second, it's easy for them to keep bringing in warm bodies because people are desperate for jobs these days. Even the crappiest jobs with split shifts and low pay get applicants.
Yeah, again, fresh out of college people. I guess I should thank the stupid people for eating up the first crappy contract their recruiter sends them.
Third, threads related to people complaining about being cheated from their hagwon appear all the time year after year full of people who have had similar experiences in the very threads.
But the chances of someone making a thread about how great and problem-free their school has been is very unlikely, hagwon or public.
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