Korean Job Discussion Forums :: View topic - Missionary or English Teacher: who learns Korean better?

Speak Korean Now!

Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!

Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

Missionary or English Teacher: who learns Korean better?
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next

Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Job-related Discussion Forum

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

tomato

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:50 am Post subject:

rooster_2006 wrote:

. . . if you become proficient in Korean as both Tomato and I have . . .

Not sure about that part.
My contention is not that I am proficient in Korean, but that I am intelligent enough to become proficient in Korean if I learn the right way, which is through practice.

I can tolerate a Korean implying that my language skill isn't top-notch, but I can't tolerate a Korean implying that I'm too stupid to learn.

Anyway, thank you for your support.
I've had so many flame warriors telling me I'm crazy and paranoid that I have started to wonder if I was only imagining the whole thing.

crossmr

Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:23 am Post subject:

Quote:

Third, imagine if I replied in Korean to every single Korean-American I met in Annandale, New York, or Los Angeles. Somehow I don't think I'd get a friendly response every single time. So why is the reverse okay?

I realize this problem does not affect the vast majority of Caucasian foreigners in Korea, but if you become proficient in Korean as both Tomato and I have, yes, this will get under your skin at times, as well.

Because they're two totally different situations. There are plenty Korean americans who are born in the west and are raised as totally fluent native speakers. How many caucasian kids have the same experience?
The analogies, as usual, are over the top, weak, and completely wrong.

You've apparently gotten into Tomato's water supply

Quote:

All I was saying is that it seems to me that the Koreans that speak to you in English are trying to be helpful. Does that help your own second language acquisition? No, it doesn't. Are they thinking about your second language acquisition goals? No, they are trying to help in the short term. They have good intentions.

You must be new here. There are certain people who seem to think every Korean is out to get them, and it starts by holding guns to their head and forcing them to listen to their English. Some people apparently have entire towns that coordinate with radios to make sure no one ever speaks Korean to them.

No one could ever have altruistic intentions besides themselves. The biggest problem is the need to perpetuate the "Us vs Them" mentality that leads to that kind of thinking. It's absolutely stunning how hard it is for some people to find someone in the country who speaks Korean.

Quote:

First of all, it's often very arrogant. Quite often the tone of voice and the context the Korean uses says, loud and clear, "I have limited tolerance for your hobby-level Korean. Let's do away with this pathetic game and just speak English. You foreigners will never understand Korea or Korean." I notice this especially when talking with Korean-Americans and women in their late 20s or early 30s who have studied abroad. "I don't want to waste my time with your trivial Korean" is the tone that drips off their voices. It's very insulting and puts me in a bad mood. My Korean is not trivial or "some hobby" -- I graduated from Yonsei University Korean Language Institute, and I take pride in my Korean skills.

Yes. I think we've found the true source of the bitterness here.

English Matt

Joined: 12 Oct 2008

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:09 am Post subject:

Who are the best language learners? Those with the time to study and the motivation. English teachers usually only fulfil one or none of those criteria. Language students usually have both. Too a lesser extent so do mormons.

crossmr

Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:53 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Suppose you went to the gym and a person stronger than you offered to lift all the weights for you.
Would that help you in the long run?

Suppose you went to school and a person smarter than you offered to do all your homework.
Would that help you in the long run?

Oh, and as for these analogies, you're talking about on-going practice situations. This is not what is happening. Unless you've agreed to pay or otherwise arranged for the Korean to speak Korean to you, you're simply engaging in random conversation and they're just as free to practice English with you as you are Korean with them. We're talking about isolated situations. If you want to have guaranteed extensive Korean conversation then you should maybe find someone willing to help you practice and arrange to speak in Korean with them.

A much better analogy might be:
Imagine you are working in a gym. At the end of the day it's time to clean-up and someone has left several heavy weights laying around. You've worked out and you can probably handle putting them back, but your coworker jumps in and insists that you let him do it. This does little to impact your work-out schedule or training, because this was not a work-out.

CentralCali

Joined: 17 May 2007

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:58 pm Post subject:

English Matt wrote:

Who are the best language learners?

Those with the time to study and the motivation. English teachers usually only fulfil one or none of those criteria. Language students usually have both. Too a lesser extent so do mormons.

The Mormon missionaries are required to learn the language on their mission and communicate in the language. Part of their required duties is to do what's called a "pass off" during regularly scheduled meetings with their bishop or another supervisor in the mission. The "pass off" is an assessment of the missionary's competency in the local language and their progress since the last "pass off." No doubt, other churches' missionaries have some similar program to ensure proficiency in Korean.

GETs, on the other hand, are not required to use Korean in their job and thus do not have the same level of immersion as the missionaries do.

Weigookin74

Joined: 26 Oct 2009

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:51 pm Post subject:

rooster_2006 wrote:

T-Bone wrote:

Wow. You guys certainly are hyperbolic.

All I was saying is that it seems to me that the Koreans that speak to you in English are trying to be helpful. Does that help your own second language acquisition? No, it doesn't. Are they thinking about your second language acquisition goals? No, they are trying to help in the short term. They have good intentions.

I certainly don't think people speaking English to you or talking to foreigners hurts you as much as you two have postulated. If you are motivated to learn Korean, you will do it regardless of "English pollution." It's really not as dramatic as you have speculated.

When I can tell that the intent is just to be helpful, I usually tolerate it. Except that a lot of the time, the intent is not to help me.

First of all, it's often very arrogant. Quite often the tone of voice and the context the Korean uses says, loud and clear, "I have limited tolerance for your hobby-level Korean. Let's do away with this pathetic game and just speak English. You foreigners will never understand Korea or Korean." I notice this especially when talking with Korean-Americans and women in their late 20s or early 30s who have studied abroad. "I don't want to waste my time with your trivial Korean" is the tone that drips off their voices. It's very insulting and puts me in a bad mood. My Korean is not trivial or "some hobby" -- I graduated from Yonsei University Korean Language Institute, and I take pride in my Korean skills.

Second of all, when I'm in Korea, I should not be required to speak English unless it is for my job. Why? Because the official language of Korea is Korean, not English.

Third, imagine if I replied in Korean to every single Korean-American I met in Annandale, New York, or Los Angeles. Somehow I don't think I'd get a friendly response every single time. So why is the reverse okay?

I realize this problem does not affect the vast majority of Caucasian foreigners in Korea, but if you become proficient in Korean as both Tomato and I have, yes, this will get under your skin at times, as well.

Get your a$$ out of Seoul. You'll speak Korean to all kinds of people who appreaciate it. Especially in the countryside. I'm not that good at Korean, but can make some small talk with people.

Slowmotion

Joined: 15 Aug 2009

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:00 pm Post subject:

There are ESL teacher's on Dave's who boast about living here for 10 years and not knowing how to speak any Korean. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

rooster_2006

Joined: 14 Oct 2007

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:15 am Post subject:

Slowmotion wrote:

There are ESL teacher's on Dave's who boast about living here for 10 years and not knowing how to speak any Korean. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

Agreed.

I've actually noticed a tendency in the long-termers to brag about it, as well. I believe they look down on younger, more flexible teachers who are willing to learn Korean.

Either they think "oh, there goes another wayguk thinking he's gonna be fluent in six months" and roll their eyes, or, if said wayguk has actually been reasonably successful, they roll their eyes and say "he's trying too hard -- that loser is only getting 2,300,000 won a month, why bother for that kind of money."

In fact, I've noticed more than one long-termer who DOES speak Korean playing his ability down in front of other foreigners and claiming to "not really speak Korean." Presumably, if you want to hang out, drink, and associate with the "big dawgs" (guys over 40 who have been in Korea 10+ years) you're not allowed to have any Korean ability, lest you be considered a nerd.

rooster_2006

Joined: 14 Oct 2007

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:37 am Post subject:

crossmr wrote:

Quote:

Look, if people don't realize that I can speak Korean and speak English to me, that's understandable. I'm white. White people speak English. It's a perfectly understandable mistake to assume that I'd rather use English.

But if, after I have spoken Korean to them, they persist with the English replies, that's rude.

It's really pretty simple:

America speaks English. In America, we speak English to each other.

Korea speaks Korean. In Korea, people speak Korean to each other.

Simple.

When I am in Korea, I want people to speak Korean to me. It's not a matter of language practice; I have already spent years practicing my Korean and don't need the practice.

It is, quite simply, a matter of pride. It's a matter of not being condescended to by people who think I am too stupid to learn their language.

Yes, when I talk to someone in perfectly understandable Korean and they (after understanding me) reply in English, that is slightly rude. It won't ruin my day, but it is slightly rude. Similar to a small child who accidentally burps loudly at the dinner table, the intent was not malicious, but it is annoying.

Then there are the more aggressive types -- "EXCUSE ME, CAN YOU SPEAK ENGLISH? I CAN'T UNDERSTAND YOU." Note that it has to be extra loud, so everyone nearby can hear and stare. They understood what I said just fine, but it's a little power play. That's very rude.

Last time I checked, the official language of Korea was Korean. I am no longer in Korea, but yes, when people in Korea constantly replied to me in English after I had already spoken Korean to them, it definitely got under my skin.

crossmr

Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:18 am Post subject:

Quote:

But if, after I have spoken Korean to them, they persist with the English replies, that's rude.

How is that rude? The only rude thing I've seen here is someone who's overdosed on entitlement.

Quote:

America speaks English. In America, we speak English to each other.

Korea speaks Korean. In Korea, people speak Korean to each other.

Simple.

Wow..not even close, this really gives us a much greater picture of what's going on here.

Quote:

It is, quite simply, a matter of pride. It's a matter of not being condescended to by people who think I am too stupid to learn their language.

Did anyone say that, or did you just assume that? Because you know what happens when you assume? Well.. actually given your previous two statements maybe you don't.

Quote:

"EXCUSE ME, CAN YOU SPEAK ENGLISH? I CAN'T UNDERSTAND YOU." Note that it has to be extra loud, so everyone nearby can hear and stare. They understood what I said just fine, but it's a little power play. That's very rude.

Uhhuh. It's absolutely stunning how two people who claim to be so good at Korean and have put so much time into Korean, are the only people who seem to run across people so apparently rude who refuse to speak Korean in Korea. It's almost like you're two peas from the same pod.

Quote:

Last time I checked, the official language of Korea was Korean. I am no longer in Korea, but yes, when people in Korea constantly replied to me in English after I had already spoken Korean to them, it definitely got under my skin.

That's utterly irrelevant and frankly shows a total disconnect from reality.
Just because the official language of Korea is Korean doesn't mean you have a right to demand any particularly language in a private conversation.

rooster_2006

Joined: 14 Oct 2007

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:56 am Post subject:

crossmr wrote:

Quote:

But if, after I have spoken Korean to them, they persist with the English replies, that's rude.

How is that rude? The only rude thing I've seen here is someone who's overdosed on entitlement.

Ah, the "entitlement card!" It's like 2011's version of the "race card."

The "entitlement card" is a new debate winner for a new decade. Pull this card out and use it in any debate to win instantly by implying that the other person is lazy and parasitic and you're hard-working. It tastes great with a teaspoon of "MY TAX DOLLARS" or a pinch of "kids these days who expect everything to be handed to them!"

It works extra well on slackers, welfare recipients, liberals, etc., but if your debate opponent isn't one of the above, who cares? The beauty of this special card is that you can use it on anybody who has ever requested anything in his or her life!

Five years ago, you could instantly win any argument by saying "because I'm black" or "would you be asking me that question if I were white?" However, the "race card" has gone the way of the dodo and everyone knows it's pass�, so in these tough economic times, a new nuclear weapon for debates has emerged -- the "entitlement card!"

A typical "entitled" person will say things such as the following:
"Give me welfare!"

"Give me free healthcare!"

"Fetch me four mandarins to carry my sedan chair!"

However, rooster_2006 takes it to a whole new level of entitlement:
Speak Korean to me in Korea, which happens to be the national language of Korea anyway and the language that 99.9% of Koreans there speak amongst themselves!

Heavens, golly gee, crossmr, you're right, I am am overdosed on entitlement!

Last edited by rooster_2006 on Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:08 am; edited 1 time in total

crossmr

Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:07 am Post subject:

Quote:

Ah, the "entitlement card!" It's like 2011's version of the "race card."

When the shoe fits.

Quote:

Speak Korean to me in Korea, which happens to be the national language of Korea anyway and the language that 99.9% of Koreans there speak amongst themselves!

Which is just as irrelevant this post as it was the previous post.

It's quite apparent from your previous posts that you're all bent out of shape over getting shot down by Korean girls who were unimpressed with your Korean, and even though you've left the country you can't help but troll around these forums. The entitlement, bitterness, and who knows what else mixed in there has pushed you far beyond the realm of a reasonable person giving a reasonable response to a situation.

rooster_2006

Joined: 14 Oct 2007

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:12 am Post subject:

crossmr wrote:

Quote:

Ah, the "entitlement card!" It's like 2011's version of the "race card."

When the shoe fits.

Quote:

Speak Korean to me in Korea, which happens to be the national language of Korea anyway and the language that 99.9% of Koreans there speak amongst themselves!

Ah, dredging up my old posts from three or four years ago! Cool, very cool.

Glad I have a fan who's into my older stuff too, not just the stuff I've produced since I went mainstream.

crossmr

Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:18 am Post subject:

rooster_2006 wrote:

crossmr wrote:

Quote:

Ah, the "entitlement card!" It's like 2011's version of the "race card."

When the shoe fits.

Quote:

Speak Korean to me in Korea, which happens to be the national language of Korea anyway and the language that 99.9% of Koreans there speak amongst themselves!

Ah, dredging up my old posts from three or four years ago! Cool, very cool.

Glad I have a fan who's into my older stuff too, not just the stuff I've produced after I went mainstream.

Never read it, remember what I said about assuming?
I got all that from this thread. Good to know you're little more than a broken record.

tomato

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:11 am Post subject:

crossmr wrote:

I don't know who you're referring to, but it couldn't be me.
At the last town I lived in, I frequented a Korean restaurant where the waitresses spoke to me only in Korean.
I also frequented a pizza place where the employees spoke to me only in Korean.
There was a neighbor kid in the first grade who frequently visited my apartment and I frequently visited his. The whole time I knew him, he spoke to me in English only once. And that was only because his Fergusonian father told him to. And even that one time might not count, because I've heard Koreans say 바이바이 to each other.

crossmr wrote:

If you want to have guaranteed extensive Korean conversation then you should maybe find someone willing to help you practice and arrange to speak in Korean with them.

Foreigners get guaranteed extended English practice in our country.
What's the difference?

crossmr wrote:

You're not accomplishing anything constructive by telling us what slime buckets we are.
If you want to accomplish something constructive, tell us how you became so wonderful.
Maybe you really DO relate perfectly with the Korean people. I never said you don't.
Maybe you really DO have all the Korean girls in town madly chasing you down the street. I never said you don't.
Maybe you really DO have have agents and directors beating on your door at all hours of the night. I never said you don't.
Maybe you really DO hold the most profound discourses on religion and politics in Korean. I never said you don't.
I'm only saying it would be more constructive for you to tell us how you did it than for you to tell us what malodorous dunghills we are.

Display posts from previous:

	Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Job-related Discussion Forum	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
Page 4 of 5

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe