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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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 Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| The topic was the military and now the Iraq war which has ended. a little confused. But what is it about soldiers that you are afraid of. You may dislike them but they would still protect you. So why the fear, and the hate? |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| The topic was the military and now the Iraq war which has ended. a little confused. But what is it about soldiers that you are afraid of. You may dislike them but they would still protect you. So why the fear, and the hate? |
An unimagineable nadir of human behavior? A gross misuse of position and firearms? How about just plain sadistic murder of civilians, does that begin to make any sense? We're paying them good money to "capture the hearts and minds" of those villagers, and they kill them for sport, posing the dead bodies like a trophy animal. You may not see anything offensive or symptomatic in that, but it's not something I can classify as acceptable. Nor is the institutionally-sanctioned rape and abuse of service men and women (I know, it "toughens them up"), or the questionable meddling in other countries' business (I know, there are cases where it would appear justifiable, but then you have your Iraqs, which by the way continues to be a problem) bringing about conflicts requiring the use of bombs, missiles, etc that someone has to pay for. If, for the sake of argument, I was a serviceman looking forward to my pension, maybe I'd adopt your view, but I'd like to think I wouldn't let it get to the point where I would allow my thought processes to be conditioned like that. Even so, I find it a little hard to get my mind around how you don't seem to have any scruples about the case they're investigating above. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Everyone in the military did this or does this? Were you there?" Wow you have some froth around your mouth easy does it. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| Everyone in the military did this or does this? |
"Even so, I find it a little hard to get my mind around how you don't seem to have any scruples about the case they're investigating above."
Which if you do check out, indicates was carried out by order of the commander in charge of the unit. Some guy objected and was beat down. I know you like to go to bat for your guys, and to a certain extent I admire your loyalty, but this is one where if you're trying to rationalize or downplay in any way, I think you've lost hold of your better sense of judgement, and maybe indicative of how some military folk may not be fit to be out in the filed with live weapons. |
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southernman
Joined: 15 Jan 2010
Location: On the mainland again
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:08 am Post subject: |
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Hey Legrande, good posts. I think we can all agree that a cetain ammount of Military power is needed. But like with any form of power it has to be closely watched by independent people to see that it doesn't get abused.
I've had family members, friends and ex workmates who have served in the military but the mere fact of giving a young immature man a rifle and the means to use it can seriously distabilise some people as your second post clearly shows. Those guys obviously freaked out and are as guilty as sin. For the narc to only be getting 7 years while also taking into account the year he has served on remand is basically a joke.
As for rape in the services, well sadly that goes on in every country's military, let's face it a certain percentage of soldiers either had two choices in life the military or crime, some choose the military and a smaller percentage go on to commit crime while serving.
Hey Rollo, why are you in China, did some teacher steal your girlfriend  . Because you haven't chosen to put up any argument about the postings Legrande has made. Apart from pithy comments about soldiers stealing teachers gf's.
A quiet word of advice, those who do have success with the other sex don't go around in packs of 20, they're usually solo operators, that way they're less threatening and can assess each situation by it's merits without having to worry about idiotic friends stuffing things up. Also there's enough women to go around, or there is if you're not retarded, so why all the latent agression towards male teachers?
I couldn't give a rats if a female treacher or a korean female went with a GI, Who cares?. I've had some good talks in bars with soldiers here, the ones I've spoken with are just trying to get by like everyone else.
But to not even talk about Legrandes postings apart from pithy comments makes me actually wonder what your agenda is and the senarios I've come up with are hilarious. So sir, I thank you for that you've made a boring Sunday much more interesting  |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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yeah just great. Remember guys. You would not have a job in the ROK except for the G.I.'s. Well you talked to some soldiers. that was noble of you. I bet you even have some black friends.
The magnificent keyboard warriors. Just the middle class disdain that soldiers are always get. Nothing new. Kipling even wrote a poem about it, in Tommy Atkins" ?.
So you are saying all service men kill civilians and rape women is that what you have against them? Then you need to get a better group of killers to guarantee your comfortable lives, or do it your self!!
Are the crimes committed by military personel , yep. Criminals in the service . yep. do drunk college boys with entitlement complexes force girls into sex or slip them a drug. yep.
I am married to the most beautiful woman on earth and very very in love, nine years now. All you guys are fighting for second best.
But did I hit a nerve Southernman. How afraid of the g.i.'s are you?" |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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I for one, want my military personnel (at least front-line combat forces) young, male, and slightly ticked-off. They may be borderline psychopaths, but at least they are my psychopath.
Now that's not to say all soldiers are, or should be that way. It's the 21st century. Today we need college-educated professionals of both genders, maybe even ones with kids and families, for a lot of the work.
I mean, they aren't getting paid to primp poodles and serve tea. |
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southernman
Joined: 15 Jan 2010
Location: On the mainland again
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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I suppoose I'm middle class now, or at least thast what I was told, if I had a University Degree. But I was certainly not bought up in a middle class environment, far from it in fact.
Ummm.... I'm not afraid of the US military, why would I be, they've done nothing to me personally and as I said I've only actually met a few.
Itaewan isn't really a place I hang out because I live several hours away. From responses here I understand thats where they hang out. The ones I met were in Daegu
Last edited by southernman on Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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yeah i think the troops in Daegu are more laidback and less into teenage macho displays than in Seoul I . All the hating on these guys calling them rapists and murderers. That's just wrong.
Put some kids in a situation that would melt most people's brains and a small percentage go nuts and kill civilians. So from that , jump to everyone in the military is a psycho. See what I am trying to get at.
Rabid hate as expressed on this thread by some is usually caused by some sort of fear. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
yeah i think the troops in Daegu are more laidback and less into teenage macho displays than in Seoul I . All the hating on these guys calling them rapists and murderers. That's just wrong.
Put some kids in a situation that would melt most people's brains and a small percentage go nuts and kill civilians. So from that , jump to everyone in the military is a psycho. See what I am trying to get at.
Rabid hate as expressed on this thread by some is usually caused by some sort of fear. |
Its not rabid hate, it's just telling it like it is. I've hung out and worked with military dudes. It's the things they couldn't get into but only could allude to, the ambiguity even some of them felt having to do certain things. It's no secret that abuses of power resulting in "collateral damage" happen with regularity in every conflict where ground forces are employed. When it makes it to the silver screen it ain't being portrayed because it's a one-off event, it's because it's become institutionalized as part of the culture of secrecy and code of military "brotherhood".
You take a hard look at the amount of financial resources allocated to the military in the past 20-30 years and the cuts in other programs designed to develop education, health care, etc. Now consider the direction the US has gone in the same time period, concerning its domestic situation, its status/standing in the hearts and minds of other countries...when whole communities on the home front go to the dogs so stealth jets can bomb civilians for oil and dudes can be outfitted with the latest artillery so they can kill for the fun of it, I do think it's about time we rethink the situation.
Concerning the latest incident, I still find it hard for some posters to pass it off as, "I want my military man to be psycho", or, "It's understandable on account of the fact that a few of the younger inexperienced ones lose it under so much stress", because this was a (1) pre-meditated, well planned out attack on civilians (2) masterminded by the commander of the troup (3) the death of innocent people was then celebrated with posed pictures and gloated over, akin to the type of photo celebrations enacted during Abu Ghraib prisoner torture and abuse (4) points to a culture of humiliation of other people relished in with an open "We can top that mentality, and we're gonna document it with proof" (5) fingers and bones were hacked off of/ripped out of the victims for keepsakes and future bragging rights.
When Indians took scalps, or a samurai (hell, even a Borneo warrior) took a head, status was accorded to how one was able to do so in the heat of battle, as well as how bad-ass the dude was you knocked off. Heavyweights going toe to toe, back and forth, valor and courage in the face of death. Tricking feudal age tech villagers into stepping into a turkey shoot, gunning them down with the latest model while wearing kevlar (no hand to hand), and then bragging about it?
You guys who can stand behind this, I don't even know where to begin. If you were/are in the military, you certainly haven't learned anything that I'm envious of. If you aren't in the military, you're just sorta like the guy in grade school who cultivated strong guys not because you actually valued their friendship, but just so you could seen as part of the winning side/"in-crowd".
Last edited by legrande on Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| I am married to the most beautiful woman on earth and very very in love, nine years now. All you guys are fighting for second best. |
Thanks for posting that little gem Rollo. Now there is no doubt where you are coming from. Post a link of a photo of your wife or you are chicken scat. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| he Conrad. I will do better than that. Let us say we meet up for a beer. I will being the picture of her. Just name the place. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| he Conrad. I will do better than that. Let us say we meet up for a beer. I will being the picture of her. Just name the place. |
Just confirms the stereotype. How about responding to what was posted concerning the incident in question? You wanna have another go at attempting to pass off pre-meditated murder on the orders of the troup commander as a few young kids who went nuts? And the celebration/pics afterwards as we saw in Abu Ghraib, yeah no relation to military culture, right?
As I said, I've hung out with military folk. I know there are decent guys in the services, as in any occupation. But what they get up to in the field, previously passed off as aberrations, is increasingly revealing a distinct culture of institutionalized humiliation, rape, and murder of other people (as well as their own concerning humiliation and rape). To brag about it openly in photos just shows how entrenched the attitudes are. Again, no real courage or valor on disply here. |
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