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myenglishisno
Joined: 08 Mar 2011 Location: Geumchon
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:44 pm Post subject: Would you work at this hagwon? |
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Alright. The story is, I've been teaching in Asia for 3.5 years and I'm considering working at my second kiddie hagwon. I taught at a kiddie hagwon my first year (it was a nightmare), worked in a public school the next few years in two countries (Korea being one) and I returned to Korea to teach adults. My adult hagwon is alright but it's just not worth it. Lots of stress, the pay is high but it doesn't offset... Seoul and it just isn't worth it. I put in my month's notice and am looking for something a bit more comfortable now.
Part of the reason is, I want to work on my MA in the mornings and teach a simple hagwon in the afternoon to fund my life. Something low stress, not too difficult.
Anyway, I found a hagwon south of Seoul. It's a new Hagwon, the owner is a Gyopo. It seems like the owner has put a lot of money into the hagwon and it shows. They just opened in the end of March and they want to hire me for May. I will be their only experienced teacher as everyone else is being hired from abroad. Because of this, I'm asking to be paid more and frankly treated better. I also want it guaranteed in writing.
I like the hagwon and I love the location which is why I'm even considering it, I just want some feedback on whether or not it's a good idea.
First, the warning signs:
- It's a new hagwon. They're preparing for 20 foreign teachers. They currently only have two. They don't open officially until April and they only have about 20 students enrolled.
- The classrooms are videotaped. I worked at a hagwon before and this wasn't the case so I'm not sure what to make of it. While I do understand why they'd want to videotape, I'm worried that they're just going to use it as ammunition against of if we rub them the wrong way.
- They wanted to hold my passport and degree. Specifically, they wanted to frame my degree out front. I told them "no" on both counts and told them that I would have it colour copied if they wanted to display that, however they weren't getting my passport or degree. They agreed.
- The contract doesn't seem diabolical... just lazy. It seems like they got it from the internet and didn't really read through it. They also hired a bunch of people that are fresh of the boat and I seem to be the first person who put their contract under a magnifying glass.
There is a lot of repetition and some overlapping clauses, as well as some big wide gaps. The contract is six pages when it should be two or three. I don't think they're intending to be malicious as they seem really eager to hire me despite me being experienced, wanting more money and being really anal over the contract.
The good signs:
- The area is great. The apartments are really nice (I went in what will become mine if I take the job).
- The school has a strong curriculum. The director is very experienced in education, although I didn't dig into their specifics. The director has a Master's Degree in Education from a North American university and I was allowed to see this.
- I'm frankly impressed with the resources and other things available. The hagwon itself looks majorly srs bsns. It's very strict, too. My last hagwon was just pure anarchy.
The contract:
It's pretty standard but there are some irregularities. Again, they obviously don't know how to write a contract so I'm cutting them slack:
The deposit is 300k per month for three months. The contract itself says it will be paid back but separate desposit form doesn't say this. Should I insist that it does?
The working hours aren't clearly defined:
"The work hours of Employee shall follow the normal work schedule of civil servants of the Korean Government; however, such work hours may be adjusted by the school principal as he/she deems appropriate as necessary."
I know there isn't a kindy but I don't like the feeling of being "on call" as it reminds me too much of my job now. Is it too much to ask to have them put the hours in the contract? They did actually tell me the hours in the meeting (4:00pm - 10:00pm teaching, one hour early for prep) and I have no problem with them. Just want it in writing.
Thanks for your help an input. I would've just posted the contract however they only gave me a paper copy of it.
Do you think this hagwon is a good idea or a bad idea? Should I just skip over it? I'm so torn. Some things about it seem great, other things not so much. Too many unknowns, frankly.
Last edited by myenglishisno on Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ttompatz

Joined: 05 Sep 2005 Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:42 am Post subject: Re: Would you work at this hagwon? |
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First, your warning signs.
new hagwan and new teacher = trouble.
new hagwan and experienced (in Korea) teacher = do-able if they are willing to listen and the teacher knows what they are talking about away from the whiteboard.
videotape can be a blessing or a curse. It has saved my bacon a couple of times over the years and has never been used against me (knock on wood).
Non-issue to me.
The degree/passport issue is, I think more out of ignorance than malice, especially since they changed their mind so quickly about it.
The contract, from what you have quoted, sounds more like a hacked up version of an EPIK contract than anything else. Change as appropriate and ask for clarity (written INTO the contract - not just orally) where ambiguous.
New hagwan always = more work. If you are up for it, go for it.
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myenglishisno
Joined: 08 Mar 2011 Location: Geumchon
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:22 am Post subject: Re: Would you work at this hagwon? |
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ttompatz wrote: |
First, your warning signs.
new hagwan and new teacher = trouble.
new hagwan and experienced (in Korea) teacher = do-able if they are willing to listen and the teacher knows what they are talking about away from the whiteboard.
videotape can be a blessing or a curse. It has saved my bacon a couple of times over the years and has never been used against me (knock on wood).
Non-issue to me.
The degree/passport issue is, I think more out of ignorance than malice, especially since they changed their mind so quickly about it.
The contract, from what you have quoted, sounds more like a hacked up version of an EPIK contract than anything else. Change as appropriate and ask for clarity (written INTO the contract - not just orally) where ambiguous.
New hagwan always = more work. If you are up for it, go for it.
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Yes, it's a lot different actually being IN COUNTRY when doing this as opposed to being out of country.
If I was sent this contract while I was in my home country looking to come back (as I was earlier this year), I wouldn't have signed it or even considered it. It's actually having met the bosses and getting the tour that made me consider it. It's also having experience and knowing that they need me more than I need them
I guess I'll just hack up the contract to my specifications and then see if they let me go through. I'm not afraid of a little work. If they reject all of my compromises without negotiation, then I'll reject their offer. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006 Location: China
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:43 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes you have to go with your instincts. But get the contract re written. This sounds doable since you are experienced. You will probably have to guide your boss and do it in a way where he or she does not lose face. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:45 am Post subject: |
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I would be inclined to take it.
That the boss has a Masters in education is impressive, just hope he has business savvy as well.
If you believe that you are a drawcard for retaining and attracting students it would be a big aye to decision process. If you are not, then the other teacher would have to be, so that you can ride piggyback.
What I'm saying is that a new hagwon needs a 'star' foreign teacher with all the right credentials in terms of what Korean parents prefer.
Other forebodings are:
There is a thick vein of 'pie in sky' spendthrift Koreans in the hakwon industry. The director of this one sees 20 foreign teachers by and by. That and all his upfront outlay with the hakwon no doubt looking like a palace inside and no expence spared with the video monitors, tells me he thinks big. Maybe a little too big. Wait till he finds out how much it costs to expand his fleet of buses/ drivers.
As the months roll by the rate of student increase will not be in line with his cloud cuckoo projections and guess who's gonna get the blame?
No prizes for guessing that one.
As debts pile up his relationship and views of foreign teachers will sour and he won't hesitate in burning them, feeling that it was really YOU that caused failure. This acrimony will gather momentum when he has an exodus of students owing to cyclical reasons.
Even if he is being bankrolled by rich friends the rate of student increase will be their yardstick and they may want out if it ain't happening.
With all his woes he probably won't be able to pay severance and airfare to his foreign staff, maybe you can add to that final salary. Of course your deposit is forfeit, that's a given.
With all that, I'd still take the job. But that's me. I love being part of an on the edge business venture and find it exciting, gives things meaning. Is why I've ne'er liked the idea of PS. |
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myenglishisno
Joined: 08 Mar 2011 Location: Geumchon
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:13 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the advice/encouragement. I verbally accepted the offer earlier this evening after the director agreed to change the contract to suit me.
All was well and then he called me back and said "oh yeah, I must remind you that your deposit is actually 400k per month for the first three months, not 300k and you only get 900k of it back when you move out. The additional 300k is for the realtor fee, cleaning and other services."
That was very annoying. We negotiated a fair deal and now he's pushing for more on his side.
If this is going to be a tug of war for the entire year I'm already starting to regret my decision, although I've still signed nothing...
Quote: |
That and all his upfront outlay with the hakwon no doubt looking like a palace inside and no expence spared with the video monitors, tells me he thinks big. Maybe a little too big. Wait till he finds out how much it costs to expand his fleet of buses/ drivers. |
Spot on. It's probably the nicest hagwon I've ever seen and that says a lot because hagwons usually are very spiffy looking. Every classroom has a huge Plasma TV, some fancy gizmos that even I don't know the purpose of and the place totally sends off an expensive hotel lobby vibe. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:46 am Post subject: |
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I think the deposit is a dealbreaker at 400, it just squeazes past at 300.
Now I believe you should get it waived entirely, going down to the originally mooted 300 is now not enough.
If you think of it, at the end of the contract year he's going to owe such an onerous amount already. It's not like he sets the deposit aside to ensure that he still has it come time for reimbursement. He's actually already spent it and has to find it anew, an unattractive prospect for him.
As I say, it'll be final salary, bonus, flight money or otherwise, according to your deal, plus the deposit. A mindboggling figure, for him that is.
He'll be thinking; 'If I have to renege on one item viz the deposit, I may as well renege on the works, in for a penny in for a pound, I sure need the bucks with all my misguided largesse. Besides, this weigukin didn't pull enough students for me, really. And he'll only waste the money, I can do more with it.'
The big payment to you will coincide with a rapid-fire series of similar to other that started round the same time as you. He'll be in up to his neck with recruiter fees and flight payments for incoming teachers and in no mood to part unnecessarily with scarce cash.
Another thing to expect, just to change the subject for some relief, is involvement in marketing exercises. That means before the hakwon opens, getting picked by the school bus and handing out goodies to students at public schools as they thread their school gates.
Your boss will budget big for these freebies and the spree will instill in you a subconscious objection as to where all the wherewithal is going to come from, bearing in mind your own needs.
B/c now you have 20 students, which naturally is neither here nor there. But later in your year there'll only be between 65 and 80 tops. Not enough. At a stage where it'll be material.
Standby for working Saturdays to attract more income. Also very late classes during the week. You'll do it. You'll have to if you want to be paid.
I'd still take the job. It has a fascination of its own. You get the thrill of a vicarious entrepreneurship without actually carrying much risk.
And it may just work out. A win win situation. But the deposit thing is a NO GO!!!!
The year will have all kind of tribulations and with all the forthcoming fires to put out a deposit is not...NOT..warranted. |
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West Coast Tatterdemalion
Joined: 31 Aug 2010
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:08 am Post subject: |
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No. |
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myenglishisno
Joined: 08 Mar 2011 Location: Geumchon
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:10 am Post subject: |
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West Coast Tatterdemalion wrote: |
No. |
Is that your answer for everything? |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:29 am Post subject: |
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Young Tatters bombed out of his skull again. |
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big_fella1
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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The deposit is the deal breaker for me.
From the moment you start work, your school is always in the position of owing you money, called salary. Why should a deposit be paid to someone, who owes you money?
They may say it's for the apartment or bills, but this is nonsense, your school from day one is always in a position of owing you money (i.e. your pay). You or your school can pay your bills when you leave, admittedly it does cost about another w4,000 to have the gas company make a special trip to read your gas meter and collect the outstanding amount but I think that's reasonable.
As far as running insurance, well I am afraid that runners are an inevitable cost in this business and at the end of the day hagwons have to deal with this and work to minimise it. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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I have overnight grown a little less sanguine over this job offer.
After 6 months or so cashflow problems will ensue with all the debt to be serviced and fewer than expected students. That means your pay is going to be staggered at first and then altogether late. The deposit beef will become totally secondary and a hazy memory as you start having bigger fish to fry.
Another issue is something that I think you mentioned as a concern of yours. The initial core of students I'll bet are well-behaved. But later enrollment will consist of the riffraff, especially at the newly introduced in a bid to survive late class.. They don't want to be there and create hell.
Nevertheless each student will be like golddust and treated with kidgloves.
What you could do is have a 6 month agreement. He gives you a post-dated LOR now, otherwise a normal E2 and all. The agreement is finish at the 6 month mark. No severance or airfare due from him unless at that 6 month mark you decide to proceed after all, then those benefits kick in.
A 6 monther can't ever pay a deposit, I don't know why. Neither do you nor the director, we all don't know why. I think b/c it's too odd.
The 6 month stop is just an idea. I don't think the director will be interested when there is such a surfeit of other candidates about. Try and sell him on all the severance he's going to save.
You weren't ever going to get it in any case, so no loss. |
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BoholDiver
Joined: 03 Oct 2009 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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If you accept it, be careful. Have an exit plan in case your pay is late. And it likely will. 20 teachers? Unless this guy is a millionaire, and even if he is, that's 40mill+ a month going out the door in wages before rent, electricity, and the like.
I am intrigued as well. I'd do it as I have an F-2, but as an E-2 no. The degree thing and passport too? BS. If he asks for the copy, make sure you do it yourself. Better safe than sorry. |
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