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jonpurdy
Joined: 08 Jan 2009
Location: Ulsan
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 Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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I generally use these rules for my elementary students:
If you can spend two seconds saying a word definition in Korean or two minutes trying to mime something out, just say the word in Korean and use that extra time practicing other things.
If students ignore your discipline in English then use Korean.
If you're short on time and you have an activity that they haven't done before, explain it in English and Korean. That way the next time they will understand more of the English. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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the poor spelling and grammar aside...perhaps you are taking this a bit too seriously.
Suggesting that teachers only use their L1 when speaking with students in and out of class is one sign of rigidity that most wise educators would avoid.
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I think I've mentioned three times on this thread that limited use of L1 was fine in my opinion. I'm advocating having English as the default language inside and outside the class room to give the students more exposure to L2 in real life situations. I don't know of many 'wise educators' who would think this was a bad idea.
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| This thread has a lot to offer, but maintaining a dogmatic position and criticizing others for their input suggests a certain style of proselytizing that comes from the types of ESL teacher training programs that most find offensive |
If you're sniping at courses like the CELTA in this part I don't really see what problem you could have against the practice of teaching solely in L2 in that situation. Most CELTA courses are run using multi-lingual classes so any use of L1 is pretty much redundant. As I mentioned before there are many types of EFL teaching going on in the world where using L1 just wouldn't be an issue. There is more to the industry than working at a Korean University you know. So it makes sense to train teachers how to teach exclusively in L2. What teachers do outside the class room isn't covered on the course but if a trainee asked me I would recommend using L2 outside as well. Most students get precious little opportunity to use their English outside the class room as it is, without the teacher using that time to practise the language they're trying to learn. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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the poor spelling and grammar aside...perhaps you are taking this a bit too seriously.
Suggesting that teachers only use their L1 when speaking with students in and out of class is one sign of rigidity that most wise educators would avoid.
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I think I've mentioned three times on this thread that limited use of L1 was fine in my opinion. I'm advocating having English as the default language inside and outside the class room to give the students more exposure to L2 in real life situations. I don't know of many 'wise educators' who would think this was a bad idea.
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| This thread has a lot to offer, but maintaining a dogmatic position and criticizing others for their input suggests a certain style of proselytizing that comes from the types of ESL teacher training programs that most find offensive |
If you're sniping at courses like the CELTA in this part I don't really see what problem you could have against the practice of teaching solely in L2 in that situation. Most CELTA courses are run using multi-lingual classes so any use of L1 is pretty much redundant. As I mentioned before there are many types of EFL teaching going on in the world where using L1 just wouldn't be an issue. There is more to the industry than working at a Korean University you know. So it makes sense to train teachers how to teach exclusively in L2. What teachers do outside the class room isn't covered on the course but if a trainee asked me I would recommend using L2 outside as well. Most students get precious little opportunity to use their English outside the class room as it is, without the teacher using that time to practise the language they're trying to learn. |
...you're making some good points, and I don't disagree with them, as I stated early on in this thread.
The thing is...you made those points in your OP.
It isn't like this is some new theory you've just hatched. NETS speaking L2 in the ESL classroom is pretty much par for the course, and few, if anyone, in this thread is disagreeing...it is that obvious to just about everyone.
Those who do speak Korean in the classroom...for whatever reasons, do so because they can...which doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.
Unfortunately, it seems this is new to you to discover NETS speaking Korean in the classroom. Embrace the horror and move on. It isn't that big a deal. Such is life.
As for speaking Korean outside the classroom...it really is quite remarkable to think a teacher is not free to speak any language they please, without being condescended to about their teaching style or habits.
Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
Those who can't teach, teach teachers.
...all in good fun... 
(for anyone who still cares in this thread...I also teach teachers, so this is not just a cheap shot...really just in fun now.)
As for a not so cheap shot...I might just go have one.
Bottoms up! ...or better yet... One shot!
But by all means...on with the rant. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:10 am Post subject: |
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Really, where are you teaching? I teach my own classes in middle school. Teachers translate occasionally. I use the odd Korean word, but mostly talk in English using my own lessons.
Weigookin74 [quote:]
*_^
Middle schools and elementary are a completely different kettles of fish.
I have worked both.
I was given a lot more freedom to teach at the middle school level.
I'm not teaching anymore. I left in disgust after a year of frustration dealing with a co-teacher who knew nothing about how to conduct English classes and refused to let me do any more than stand to the side while she nattered on in Korean. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
It's definitely not one size fits all, but Ed is not talking about ESL classrooms in the States or even university classrooms in Korea. He's talking about Public school NETs, who as least as far as the MOE is concerned, are subject matter experts hired as assistants to improve communicative English of the students and staff. They're not there to teach academic English, to teach strategies to pass standardized tests, or to council students with chronic problems all of which I fully admit L1 would need to be used.
[quote: Silkhighway wrote:]
Well, I agree.
I've never worked in larger centers in the PS system so I can't speak about them, but what I have seen in rural areas the NET's are definitly NOT speaking Korean in classrooms. It's the Korean co-teachers blabbering on and on in Korean leaving the NET hardly enough time to get in the odd English word or two.
I doubt whether I've met 2 or even 1 NET whose Korean was good enough to use in class.
Unless you're talking about Kyopos.... that's another matter. |
I can tell you in larger centers that kids usually have access to Hakwons and other types of English activities. Their English is higher and the teachers can use more English. Rural areas don't have this so much. Kids tend to have lower English levels and need more translation. I worked in both areas. |
This is partially true, but not altogether. Many of the students have access to hagwons in rural areas as well, sometimes.
There are usually 5 - 10% of the class whose English level is better than that of the co-teacher. This may be part of the problem, the co-teachers don't want to embarrass themselves. |
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ZIFA
Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: Dici che il fiume..Trova la via al mare
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| sulperman wrote: |
| Speaking it too much isn't good, but using a few words every class can be a major help. |
Right. I translate a fair amount of stuff directly into Korean which saves time.
The kids respect for you increases with the amount of Korean that you know. They play up far less. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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As for speaking Korean outside the classroom...it really is quite remarkable to think a teacher is not free to speak any language they please, without being condescended to about their teaching style or habits.
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Fair point I was probably guilty of typing under the influence on a couple of occasions.
By the way, it's a bit rich talking about 'being condescended to' when you come out with this
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| ...the poor spelling and grammar aside |
You should know by now, comments like this really only make the guys who mention it look stupid. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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As for speaking Korean outside the classroom...it really is quite remarkable to think a teacher is not free to speak any language they please, without being condescended to about their teaching style or habits.
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Fair point I was probably guilty of typing under the influence on a couple of occasions.
By the way, it's a bit rich talking about 'being condescended to' when you come out with this
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| ...the poor spelling and grammar aside |
You should know by now, comments like this really only make the guys who mention it look stupid. |
Glad to see the subtlety of that point was not lost on you.
The dogmatic approach to good form in all cases tends to rub most people the wrong way...regardless of good intention, intelligence...or the lack thereof. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Glad to see the subtlety of that point was not lost on you.
The dogmatic approach to good form in all cases tends to rub most people the wrong way...regardless of good intention, intelligence...or the lack thereof. |
I don't agree. There's a big difference between having a lively debate about methodology, which sometimes gets out of hand, and making snide comments about people's grammar and spelling on an internet forum.
Last edited by edwardcatflap on Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bobbybigfoot
Joined: 05 May 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| A NET speaking a little Korean in class is a GOOD thing. And should be encouraged. The more Korean a NET knows, the more effective s/he can be as a teacher. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| The more Korean a NET knows, the more effective s/he can be as a teacher. |
So KETs must be the most effective teachers around. Funy you don't get that impression from reading these boards. |
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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| The more Korean a NET knows, the more effective s/he can be as a teacher. |
So KETs must be the most effective teachers around. Funy you don't get that impression from reading these boards. |
I keep bringing this up. I would like to hear somebody justify why NETS should be hired in the Korean public school system. What does having a NET contribute to the student learning experience that the normal KT doesn't provide? |
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bobbybigfoot
Joined: 05 May 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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| The more Korean a NET knows, the more effective s/he can be as a teacher. |
So KETs must be the most effective teachers around. Funy you don't get that impression from reading these boards. |
Obviously you need to be fluent in the target language. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Obviously you need to be fluent in the target language |
Why? I mean if you're teaching fairly low level students and are using Korean quite a bit to give instructions, explain grammar, manage the class etc...How good does your English really have to be? And, as Silkway pointed out, how much use is a native speaker when you get down to it? |
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Reise-ohne-Ende
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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| Obviously you need to be fluent in the target language |
Why? I mean if you're teaching fairly low level students and are using Korean quite a bit to give instructions, explain grammar, manage the class etc...How good does your English really have to be? And, as Silkway pointed out, how much use is a native speaker when you get down to it? |
Because the age the students are at now (especially elementary schoolers) is one of the most malleable and adaptive, especially when it comes to languages. Habits they pick up now - in pronunciation, vocabulary, etc. - are very likely to fossilize, which is why you have older Korean speakers with an IMMENSE knowledge of English vocabulary and grammar who still can't make the 'f' sound. The wrong pronunciation was fossilized into their language at a young age (by non-fluent teachers) and unless they spend a great amount of time consciously undoing that programming, that's how they're always going to sound.
For example, I'm really big on things like pronunciation and articles in class. My co-teacher is a great teacher, but her English is not the best (she didn't specialize it in it university; the job got plopped on her because she was the youngest). Every time she says things like "Look at TV!" or "shupermarket", it drives me batty. Because - and here's the most relevant part - when she says, "Repeat after me: shupermarket," that is EXACTLY what the students say.
When they repeat after me, if I hear mistakes in pronunciation, I always say, "Look at my mouth." And then I repeat the word, making sure to emphasize where they're making mistakes (like making sure they notice my tongue between my teeth for 'the'). And a funny thing happens. These kids, who two seconds ago sounded completely Korean, are now pronouncing it EXACTLY the same way I am. And it's in large part due to their age, not my technique. I have 35-year-old friends that I've sat with for 10 minutes trying to get them to say my name right (it's an 'f', not a 'p') and it doesn't matter what I do, they really don't seem able to copy it. I'll make them put their upper teeth on their lower lip and blow, and they'll make the 'f' sound. And then they do the same thing in trying to say my name, but somehow their lips always slide together before they vocalize and they end up saying 'p' again. A lot of them don't even seem to be able to hear the difference.
My point is: unless a Korean teacher is FLUENT in English, with near-native pronunciation, they are often hampering students' abilities by perpetuating extremely common L2 errors. This is where NETs come in. |
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