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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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 Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:40 am Post subject: |
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My uncle a thirty year vet of the marines fought in wwII and in Korea. He thought the all volunteer professional army was a bad thing. I think maybe this is what you are talking about. they no longer look at the military as a short time thing, where as before a soldier was still mostly a civilian. Now the loyalty is to the unit and to the officer corp. The draft sucked but they were not so incultated into the military culture. On that we can agree.
But yeah it was a small group of soldiers and crimes happen in every group. Canada just went through a night mare when a senior officer was found to be a serial sex criminal. No one suggests or would suggest that this is a part of the Canadian officer culture.
Stereotype , some yob asks me about my wife's photo and posting it on the net. this is a discussion forum , nothing personel is meant. It is fun and sometimes informative. Family is off limits. Snarling is one thing but do not make it real. I stand up for my wife, and she stands up for me. Smarmy comments by a perv English teacher in Korea, now thats a stereotype. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
My uncle a thirty year vet of the marines fought in wwII and in Korea. He thought the all volunteer professional army was a bad thing. I think maybe this is what you are talking about. they no longer look at the military as a short time thing, where as before a soldier was still mostly a civilian. Now the loyalty is to the unit and to the officer corp. The draft sucked but they were not so incultated into the military culture. On that we can agree.
But yeah it was a small group of soldiers and crimes happen in every group. Canada just went through a night mare when a senior officer was found to be a serial sex criminal. No one suggests or would suggest that this is a part of the Canadian officer culture.
Stereotype , some yob asks me about my wife's photo and posting it on the net. this is a discussion forum , nothing personel is meant. It is fun and sometimes informative. Family is off limits. Snarling is one thing but do not make it real. I stand up for my wife, and she stands up for me. Smarmy comments by a perv English teacher in Korea, now thats a stereotype. |
Okay, fair enough about things getting too personal (although you have to admit you kinda put it there by saying she was the most beautiful and all the rest of us were "fighting for second best"). That case involving Colonel Williams was especially shocking because he was basically the top guy in charge of like the whole Air Force (actually personally flew the Queen of England over Canadian skies), and not only broke into several homes using his military skills to rape, but also murder...no one would say all Canadian service men use their knowledge towards these ends. Canadian service men aren't all that active in significant numbers worldwide, and global news sites don't really report on what goes down there. I was near Halifax last summer, and the information one receives when you're actually in Canada from the media is way more detailed and extensive.
However, US service men are pretty active, probably the most active military force worldwide. The amount of financial resources allocated to them at the expense of other programs and interests is significant. You could argue the emphasis on military-oriented gov't policy has resulted in a compromised position for the US both at home and abroad (except of course for the financial well-being of military folks).
There have also been documented a fair number of shocking incidents involving US service men in Abu Ghraib, Iraq, and most recently Afghanistan. A lot of us have seen movies like "Casualties of War", which are based on true events. When you see one roach, it probably means there are a few hundred behind the cupboards, especially on account of the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" code of secrecy tied to notions of "loyalty".
When your job is to kill a fellow human being, it's not a stretch to say you're probably going to undergo a fundamental change in your outlook on life and how you view other people. Do I completely blame the soldiers personally? Generally, no, underneath it all they're like us. They're told to embark on a mission, and their job is to carry it out. What I feel is plaintively wrong is how the men upstairs have turned the military into their henchman to pillage and exploit on a massive scale. The men employed to do so aren't stupid, they can see why they're being told to do things, so over time idealism goes out the window, and you have to justify the killing with some other impulse, and this is where things begin to get twisted up. So if I were a parent of the fellas in the photos holding up the heads of the Afghanis they had killed for fun, I would be extremely saddened by what the military as instructed by corporate/elite interests had done to my son, and I would not advise anyone to support the current policies on which they operate. |
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conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| What kind of person writes "My wife is the most beautiful woman in the world and all you guys fight for second best" in a thread about the US military? This along with your numerous comments about "soldiers stealing English teachers women" are very bizarre and demonstrate some weird hang up or complex on your part. So spare me the "pervy English teacher in Korea" comments. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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reft4268
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| No, no I don't |
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cyui
Joined: 10 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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Morale is all about pride
Last edited by cyui on Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
http://www.newsweek.com/2011/04/03/the-military-s-secret-shame.html
Last year nearly 50,000 male veterans screened positive for �military sexual trauma� at the Department of Veterans Affairs, up from just over 30,000 in 2003. |
That article is very disturbing. I had no idea the US army had so many closeted homosexual rapists. |
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methdxman
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I for one, want my military personnel (at least front-line combat forces) young, male, and slightly ticked-off. They may be borderline psychopaths, but at least they are my psychopath.
Now that's not to say all soldiers are, or should be that way. It's the 21st century. Today we need college-educated professionals of both genders, maybe even ones with kids and families, for a lot of the work.
I mean, they aren't getting paid to primp poodles and serve tea. |
I think standards need to be raised for officers. I don't care if the grunts are borderline psychopaths, but the real problem is that officers are as well. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:07 am Post subject: |
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Started with the Vietnam war. The best and brightest sat that one out. When the elite no longer think they need to serve then they should not complain.
Amazing how many posters on here are experts on military life. I am assuming they all have served. Or perhaps spouting off about something they know nothing about. The finest tradition of the keyboard warrior.
Anyway NETS would not have a job in the ROK without the military presence. Was'nt it George Bernard Shaw who said something about those who complain about the British military while hiding behind the walls of the fleet. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
Started with the Vietnam war. The best and brightest sat that one out. When the elite no longer think they need to serve then they should not complain.
Amazing how many posters on here are experts on military life. I am assuming they all have served. Or perhaps spouting off about something they know nothing about. The finest tradition of the keyboard warrior.
Anyway NETS would not have a job in the ROK without the military presence. Was'nt it George Bernard Shaw who said something about those who complain about the British military while hiding behind the walls of the fleet. |
Hold on there, Rollo. You're missing the point that people who serve in the military are paid by the public's tax dollars. On top of that there are certain international standards of conduct that need to be observed under any and all conditions; anyone, whether you're a soldier or not, understands that institutionalized rape and wanton violence are out of line, although it is US soldiers who year after year are found to violate basic decent standards of behavior. This indicates that it is not a few bad apples, but has become an embedded strain within the military. The photos of US soldiers holding up the heads of Afghan civilians they had murdered for the hell of it in posed photos echoes those taken at Abu Ghraib, they are clearly boasting of their humiliation of another human being. The fact that you will sit behind your keyboard and attempt to defend this type of behavior simply serves to further undermine the credibility of the US military.
There are plenty of ELS jobs where the US has absolutely no presence, for example the very place where you reside now, so you're wrong on that count as well. Further, it was in fact China who kicked McCarther's American ass in the Korean War. Using your logic, there ought not be any NET jobs there, yet it's one of the fastest growing markets.
You claim that those who have not served have no clue. Have a look at the link on this page posted on April 3rd at 3:50a.m. Your fellow soldiers have broken the oath to remain silent about what goes on in the field because they realize matters have gotten out of hand. They make it clear that it is in fact the US military which has become the global terrorist.
To borrow a few words from Donald Trump, "Rollo, you're fired." |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| The Army used to have the disciplinary standards and codes of conduct as reflected by Robert E. Lee. Stuff still happened, but things like "assault of a woman" would get you hanged on the spot. Chivalry was taken much more seriously. Also, military service, especially in time of war, was seen as a duty to participate in by many of the upper ranks of society, and not just cushy desk jobs, but leading men into battle by example of bravery. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| There are plenty of ELS jobs where the US has absolutely no presence, for example the very place where you reside now, so you're wrong on that count as well. Further, it was in fact China who kicked McCarther's American ass in the Korean War. |
Yeah, the Chinese did so well they had to sue for peace. A 10-to-1 (Chinese to American) death ratio is not "kicking ass," especially when the war ends in a stalemate. The Communists did manage to purchase the longest retreat in US Army history, even if it cost them dearly in blood.
North Korea:
215,000 dead
303,000 wounded
120,000 MIA or POW[13]
China P.R.
(Official data):
183,108 dead (including non-combat deaths)
383,218 wounded
25,621 MIA
21,400 POW[24][25][26]
(U.S. estimate):[13]
400,000+ dead
486,000 wounded
21,000 POW
South Korea
137,899 KIA[10]
450,742 WIA[10]
32,838 MIA or POW[10]
United States
36,516 dead (including 2,830 non-combat deaths)
92,134 wounded
8,176 MIA
7,245 POW |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Quote: |
| There are plenty of ELS jobs where the US has absolutely no presence, for example the very place where you reside now, so you're wrong on that count as well. Further, it was in fact China who kicked McCarther's American ass in the Korean War. |
Yeah, the Chinese did so well they had to sue for peace. A 10-to-1 (Chinese to American) death ratio is not "kicking ass," especially when the war ends in a stalemate. The Communists did manage to purchase the longest retreat in US Army history, even if it cost them dearly in blood. |
(1)You have to consider China 60 years ago. Where it was at technologically. Their soldiers were out there in sub-freezing weather wearing friggin' tennis shoes, carring around a bit of millet in a canvas backpack to survive on. How that affected their troops' level of stamina and overall mental condition. Consider they had to march a minimum of 460 kilometers from China before even engaging UN forces in North Korea. Consider also the source for war caualty figures.
Casualties
According to the data from the US Department of Defense, the United States had suffered 33,686 battle deaths, along with 2,830 non-battle deaths during the Korean War and 8,176 missing in action.[125] Western sources estimate the PVA had suffered between 100,000 to 1,500,000 deaths (most estimate some 400,000 killed), while the KPA had suffered between 214,000 to 520,000 deaths (most estimate some 500,000). Between some 245,000 to 415,000 South Korean civilian deaths were also suggested, and the entire civilian casualty during the war were estimated from 1,500,000 to 3,000,000 (most sources estimate some 2,000,000 killed).[126]
Data from official Chinese sources, on the other hand, reported that the PVA had suffered 114,000 battle deaths, 34,000 non-battle deaths, 340,000 wounded, 7,600 missing and 21,400 captured during the war. Chinese sources also reported that North Korea had suffered 290,000 casualties, 90,000 captured and a "large" number of civilian deaths.[127] In return, the Chinese and North Koreans estimated that about 390,000 soldiers from United States, 660,000 soldiers from South Korea and 29,000 other UN soldiers were "eliminated" from the battlefield.[127
(2)To say the Chinese had to sue for peace is a misnomer. It was UN forces led by the US and MacArtur's decision to extend the war into China which essentially forced China to fight. China had warned the UN and US not to continue their northward march, but were ignored by President Truman. At this time Truman had also sent US warships to Taiwan to support the Nationalists against mainland China. So China essentially said, "F**k it", sent their men in, and pushed the US and UN forces all the way back to where they had come from. They held their position there until Eisenhower was elected in 1952. It was Eisenhower who went to Korea to see about negotiating a truce, as it was obvious that China was more willing to commit more of its men to the conflict than the US and its allies were at that point.
(3)Big bad ol' Mac did get his ass kicked as a result of his decision to extend the conflict to China-
On 11 April 1951, Commander-in-Chief Truman relieved the controversial General MacArthur, the Supreme Commander in Korea.[39]:123�127 There were several reasons for the dismissal. MacArthur had crossed the 38th parallel in the mistaken belief that the Chinese would not enter the war, leading to major allied losses. He believed that whether or not to use nuclear weapons should be his own decision, not the President's.[115]:69 MacArthur threatened to destroy China unless it surrendered. While MacArthur felt total victory was the only honorable outcome, Truman was more pessimistic about his chances once involved in a land war in Asia, and felt a truce and orderly withdrawal from Korea could be a valid solution.[116] MacArthur was the subject of congressional hearings in May and June 1951, which determined that he had defied the orders of the President and thus had violated the US Constitution.[115]:79 A popular criticism of MacArthur was that he never spent a night in Korea, and directed the war from the safety of Tokyo.[117]
(4)Finally, it's important to remember how this whole mess occurred-
At the Potsdam Conference (July�August 1945), the Allies unilaterally decided to divide Korea�without consulting the Koreans�in contradiction of the Cairo Conference.[39]:24[47]:24�5[61]:25[62]
On 8 September 1945, Lt. Gen. John R. Hodge of the United States arrived in Incheon to accept the Japanese surrender south of the 38th parallel.[47] Appointed as military governor, General Hodge directly controlled South Korea via the United States Army Military Government in Korea (USAMGIK 1945�4 .[63]:63 He established control by restoring to power the key Japanese colonial administrators and their Korean police collaborators.[31] The USAMGIK refused to recognise the provisional government of the short-lived People's Republic of Korea (PRK) because he suspected it was communist. These policies, voiding popular Korean sovereignty, provoked civil insurrections and guerrilla warfare.[40] On 3 September 1945, Lieutenant General Yoshio Kozuki, Commander, Japanese Seventeenth Area Army, contacted Hodge, telling him that the Soviets were south of the 38th parallel at Kaesong. Hodge trusted the accuracy of the Japanese Army report.[47]
(5)Kuros, "You're fired". |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Actually Macarthur was removed because of his communications with political figures in Europe regarding U.S. strategy. He overstepped his bounds. The joint chiefs had tried to have him removed a year earlier, Truman held on to him and Mac tried to stab him in the back. Mao would never have gotten involved but he thought he had Stalins promise to help. Stalin was more concerned with Eastern Europe and Greece. The British were also tired of the war and were more concerned about Europe and they were leaving and the U.S. did not want to go it alone. |
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