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School is trying to black list and deport me!
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Young FRANKenstein

Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:35 am Post subject:

austrian123 wrote:

Teaching in Korea is not a real career and we are not real teachers IMO

Speak for yourself. Just because your school and your students suck doesn't mean everyone else is in the same boat.

austrian123

Joined: 15 Oct 2010

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:58 am Post subject:

Young FRANKenstein wrote:

austrian123 wrote:

Teaching in Korea is not a real career and we are not real teachers IMO

Speak for yourself. Just because your school and your students suck doesn't mean everyone else is in the same boat.

No need to get personal. I love my hagwon and my students....
I understand why my comments may upset you..it's a natural defensive reaction. I'm not trying to insult anyone, I'm telling the truth as it is.

IMO a real teacher is one who has graduated from teacher's college, whose work experience is transferable back home. Do you think your teaching experience in Korea is transferable back home? After you leave Korea do you think that any school in your home country would hire you as a teacher?
Do schools in your home country hire people as teachers who only have a BA?

blm

Joined: 11 Nov 2010

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:09 am Post subject:

So as long as you have the right papers it doesn't matter what type of job you do in the classroom? Surely performance is the true indicator and not some ingrained social measure. It's not a real career I agree though, but there are a lot of industries that won't be the same in 10 or 20 years and there are a lot of jobs that aren't careers. There are more jobs in the world that go nowhere than those that will lead to becoming a CEO. The % of people that will remain in the one field their whole life seems to be shrinking.

PatrickGHBusan

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:15 am Post subject:

austrian123 wrote:

Young FRANKenstein wrote:

austrian123 wrote:

Teaching in Korea is not a real career and we are not real teachers IMO

Speak for yourself. Just because your school and your students suck doesn't mean everyone else is in the same boat.

Fair point but let me counter with this:

Your experience in Korea can lead to many other teacjing jobs in many other countries. ESL-TEFL CAN be a career.

Certified Teachers are a different story as they are already qualified when they arrive in Korea.

Also, you should not limit your view of Korea to Hakwon work.

People who work at Universties can get their experience considered back home.

People who work at PS can also do that if they did a good job of course.

Now, a career is what you make of it. If you see your stint in Korea as a break, as a pit stop or as a gig to pay the bills, then that is ALL it will be.

You CAN however get a lot more from it, including recognized professional experience.

On a more focused note, I have known quite a few people who headed to Korea with their BA, worked there as Teachers for a couple of years and then used that experience to get into one of the better Teachers College programs out there. They then got a heck of a lot more out of that program as they had classroom experience. When they graduate, they then have Certification AND practical experience and this would put them ahead of most fresh Teacher College grads with no experience...

Many people stay in Korea mid or long term and have a flourishing career. Oddly enough, those people tend not to stick to Hakwon positions and move into the better jobs.

Just sayin...you may need to broaden your view here.

austrian123

Joined: 15 Oct 2010

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:40 am Post subject:

blm wrote:

So as long as you have the right papers it doesn't matter what type of job you do in the classroom?

No, having the right papers shows that you're actually qualified. It shows that one has been legitmately trained according accepted standards. And I for one believe that if you have the right papers, then one would also possess the desire to do a good job in the classroom.

How many times have you read on Dave's where a foreigner or gyopo posts that he wants to teach esl in Korea without a degree and you have a countless number of people acting all high and mighty that that person shouldn't try to teach illegally because that person doesn't have a degree.
Yet when I post my opinion that esl teachers in Korea aren't real teachers, I receive knee jerk defensive reactions that you don't need proper papers to be a real teacher!
HOW HYPOCRITICAL!.

Quote:

Surely performance is the true indicator and not some ingrained social measure.

Teachers college is not an ingrained social measure. It's 'license' to show the world that one has been properly trained to teach.

Quote:

It's not a real career I agree though, but there are a lot of industries that won't be the same in 10 or 20 years and there are a lot of jobs that aren't careers.

What industries are you referring to? The tried and true industries and careers will never change much. With the exception of IT, legitmate industries and careers such as Nursing, Architechture, Medical field, Law will never change.

Quote:

There are more jobs in the world that go nowhere than those that will lead to becoming a CEO. The % of people that will remain in the one field their whole life seems to be shrinking.

Do you have facts to back this up? IMO once you're in a legitmate industry, most people won't change to another because it means starting over at the bottom and taking a pay cut.

austrian123

Joined: 15 Oct 2010

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:54 am Post subject:

Quote:

Fair point but let me counter with this:

Your experience in Korea can lead to many other teacjing jobs in many other countries. ESL-TEFL CAN be a career.

Sure it CAN be a career if you convince yourself that it can be. I can be burger flipper and convince myself that it is a career. But my point is that esl teachers regardless of the country they teach in are not real teachers IMO unless they go to teacher's college. So my point to the original poster was who cares if you're blacklisted or fired....it's just teaching esl, and nothing more. It's not a big deal...life goes on.

Quote:

Certified Teachers are a different story as they are already qualified when they arrive in Korea.

Agreed

Quote:

Also, you should not limit your view of Korea to Hakwon work.

People who work at Universties can get their experience considered back home.

Please provide me with an example of what someone with university esl teachng experience in Korea can do back home. All of my friends who taught in Korea have had to start from the bottom when they returned home.

Quote:

You CAN however get a lot more from it, including recognized professional experience.

Again, please provide examples. IMO work experience in Korea is not recognized as real work experience in North America.

Quote:

On a more focused note, I have known quite a few people who headed to Korea with their BA, worked there as Teachers for a couple of years and then used that experience to get into one of the better Teachers College programs out there. They then got a heck of a lot more out of that program as they had classroom experience. When they graduate, they then have Certification AND practical experience and this would put them ahead of most fresh Teacher College grads with no experience...

Doesn't mean anything in North America. You've cited your opinions that some esl work can be accepted as professional work experience back home..but the example you cited above only pertains to Korea.

Quote:

Many people stay in Korea mid or long term and have a flourishing career. Oddly enough, those people tend not to stick to Hakwon positions and move into the better jobs.

Just sayin...you may need to broaden your view here.

Well if a flourishing teaching career is what is desired of esl teachers in Korea, why not try to establish a teaching career back home? Why limit yourself to Korea?

PatrickGHBusan

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:18 am Post subject:

I will respond to your two direct questions...

Quote:
Also, you should not limit your view of Korea to Hakwon work.

Quote:

People who work at Universties can get their experience considered back home.

Please provide me with an example of what someone with university esl teachng experience in Korea can do back home. All of my friends who taught in Korea have had to start from the bottom when they returned home.

I have more than one example if you want.

For starters, I did not start from the bottom when I moved to Canada. My experience in Korea led directly to the public sector job I landed.

I know many other people that went to their respective home countries and found jobs in education based on their ESL experience. They all had one thing in common: they did more than the minimum at their jobs in Korea, accumulated achievements, references and added to their qualifications.

Again, a job and career is what you make of it.

If a person sits there playing bingo at ding dong dang hakwon and does nothing more, well then that is wasted time in terms of work experience and it may actually set you back career wise.

I know a few Americans who got their Korean teaching experience recognized stateside and who are working as teachers. They started a couple of rungs higher on the pay scale because of their experience.

I know many people who used their Korean experience to land private sector or public sector positions. Again, they all did more than the minimum while in Korea.

I know of 4 people who worked at Universities in Korea who landed guest lecturer positions in Canadian Universities and then moved on to assistant professor (they studied while teaching in Korea).

Finally, I certainly know of numerous people who worked in Korea for a few years, improved their credentials, accumulated referenced experience and saved money who then paid for a new degree with their savings and then landed very interesting jobs.

Quote:

Quote:
You CAN however get a lot more from it, including recognized professional experience.

Again, please provide examples. IMO work experience in Korea is not recognized as real work experience in North America.

The examples I provided above answer this question as well.

Korean experience will be recognized in many areas of work in NA. You do need to present it well and to have something to show for it beyond: I was a warm body at ding dang dong school for 2 years....

Now on this issue:

Quote:

Well if a flourishing teaching career is what is desired of esl teachers in Korea, why not try to establish a teaching career back home? Why limit yourself to Korea?

Why do you insist on saying: a person is limiting themselves to Korea if they establish themselves there?

Good lord my man, some people marry locals, have families and put down roots. Others have very stimulating careers in Korea and do extremely well.

Ask on this board, there are foreigners who are tenure track professors, who run their own schools, who teach at international schools, who do all sorts of things in ESL.

A teaching career is not just about getting on pay scale in NA and teaching full time...its a lot more wide open than that.

In conclusion, your opinion on this issue is that ESL in Korea is worthless as professional experience and not a career. That is your opinion and no one can tell you you have no right to it. However, just because you choose to see things this way, it does not follow that its the same for everyone nor that it is that limited.

SeoulNate

Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:02 am Post subject:

austrian123 wrote:

LOL. Sorry to burst your bubble pal, but this is completely false.

I have a degree in Secondary Education for Language Arts, I am a certified teacher with experience back home and work here most certainly counts as long as you get the references and material to prove it.

Now, if you stay here for 10 years and expect to get instant tenure at a school back home then you will be mistaken. However, you are able to get the same boost in years worked, and thus salary, just as if you had transfered from another public school in a different state. Which usually means 3-5 years tops, depending on the state.

I realize Australia and the US are very different, but I highly doubt that Australia, with its teacher shortages, is going to deny someone a few years work experience going towards their salary from their work in Korea.

If your friends can not get credit for their work then they really needed to do more work with their interpersonal communications in their workplace to boost their references as well as their interview and negotiation skills.

bbonthec

Joined: 07 Nov 2007

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:16 pm Post subject:

Um, you guys just completely derailed this thread. Do you just really like to argue or something? Get back on topic....

austrian123

Joined: 15 Oct 2010

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:46 am Post subject:

Seoulnate and Patrickbusan.... I acknowledge that there are exceptions to the rule. However, have you considered many people are teaching or have taught in Korea? Hundreds of thousands? And of these hundreds of thousands, what percentage of them have been able to translate their work experience in Korea to meaningful jobs back home? Just because you know a handful of people who have been successful in making the transition, doesn't meant that it applies to all. Because generally speaking, esl experience isn't universally accepted as valid work experience back home.

PatrickGHBusan

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:30 am Post subject:

austrian123 wrote:

Seoulnate and Patrickbusan....

I acknowledge that there are exceptions to the rule. However, have you considered many people are teaching or have taught in Korea? Hundreds of thousands? And of these hundreds of thousands, what percentage of them have been able to translate their work experience in Korea to meaningful jobs back home? Just because you know a handful of people who have been successful in making the transition, doesn't meant that it applies to all. Because generally speaking, esl experience isn't universally accepted as valid work experience back home.

All we are saying is that it is not a universal conclusion that ESL is not accepted as valid work experience back home. the point was well made before: it can work for you, it can be recognized but it needs to be referenced.

As for the hundreds of thousands of teachers who worked in Korea, I am fairly certain a lot of them managed to get their experience in Korea recongnized. Some of course did not, but that is the same way many people fail to get their experiences recognized properly when they apply for work. A lot of people simply have no clue and possibly no desire how to build a career and what that requires in terms of job choices, accumulating references, improving your skills and qualification...

So basically if as a teacher you sit on your hands in Korea and stick to ding ding dang hakwon where you punch in and punch out, do the minimum and play bingo, well then that experience will indeed be worth next to nothing. If on the other hand you do more with your job, get it referenced, then it can benefit you back home in several ways.

Thats it for me. Take care Smile

Young FRANKenstein

Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:49 am Post subject:

austrian123 wrote:

Young FRANKenstein wrote:

austrian123 wrote:

Teaching in Korea is not a real career and we are not real teachers IMO

Speak for yourself. Just because your school and your students suck doesn't mean everyone else is in the same boat.

No need to get personal.

If you didn't want it to get personal, you shouldn't have started by insulting people's careers.

Quote:

I'm telling the truth as it is.

No, it's the truth as you see it. Big difference.

Quote:

Do you think your teaching experience in Korea is transferable back home?

Why wouldn't it? I'm not a hagwon monkey and I don't usually teach English.

Quote:

After you leave Korea do you think that any school in your home country would hire you as a teacher?

Why wouldn't they? I've worked as a teacher before I arrived in Korea. Why wouldn't I work as a teacher after I left Korea?

Quote:

Do schools in your home country hire people as teachers who only have a BA?

Either way, why would I care? Doesn't apply to me or anyone I work with.

ZIFA

Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: Dici che il fiume..Trova la via al mare

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:32 am Post subject: Re: School is trying to black list and deport me!

TNizzle wrote:

And the school wants to ...black list me.

The school cannot blacklist you with immigration.
What they can do is add your name to an unofficial blacklist (there is one the Korean public school teachers use). This is illegal but common practise.
If you are certain that your name is on the list, you can legally force them to remove it. But to check, you'd have to have a password/ be a member.
It would only affect your employment chances if your potential employer happened to pay any attention to the blacklist.
In my exp, koreans know that other koreans tend to exagerrate when it comes to character assasination. Thus most schools take the blacklist with a pinch of salt. If they like you, they like you: and that is all that basically maters.

bbonthec wrote:

One of my previous Korean co-workers was not allowed to quit his job, and he had a dying family member. School basically told him that he had to wait out the month, until a replacement was found, or he'd be sued, pronto.

That is hard to believe, given the prime importance of family obligations in korea. In my exp..a Korean would never do that to another Korean. I'm guessing the dying family member was only a distant relation?

SeoulNate

Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:34 am Post subject:

austrian123 wrote:

lolerskates.

And you are speaking for the hundreds of thousands then? Just a tiny bit hypocritical dont you think?

austrian123

Joined: 15 Oct 2010

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:14 pm Post subject:

SeoulNate wrote:

austrian123 wrote:

lolerskates.

And you are speaking for the hundreds of thousands then? Just a tiny bit hypocritical dont you think?

How is it hypocritical? Are you still in Korea? If so, why?

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