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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110402/wl_nm/us_libya
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| Coalition "friendly fire" kills 13 Libyan rebels |
D'oh, do that a few more times and there won't be any rebels left. Gotta be careful when taking the side of a rebellion about a quarter the size of the 18th Street gang in LA. |
I fail to see how snarking about friendly fire deaths helps the anti-war platform.
April 3rd update
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At least 13 people were killed when a coalition plane fired on a rebel convoy between Brega and Ajdabiya on Friday.
The rebels' leadership has acknowledged that firing in the air through lack of discipline could have provoked the Nato air strike on their own forces on Friday. |
The small number of rebels is disappointing in one respect. Nevertheless, 1,000 rebels control half of Libya. Additionally, a small rebel army will mean a greater likelihood of institutional government taking over, should the rebels actually succeed. But that is the rub.
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The rebels are determined to strengthen their forces and defeat Col Gaddafi, a spokeswoman for the transitional national council, Iman Bugaighis, has told the BBC World Service.
"We have reorganised our troops, our army forces. Now the army is in the front and then followed by our volunteers who are fighting with the army," she told the Weekend World Today programme.
"We know and we admit that it's unequal forces of course, and we are, after all, civilians and volunteers, most of us; and it was planned, intentionally, from the beginning not to have [a] structured army.
"Of course we are determined, this is the end of it, that this land cannot bear both of us. We will do whatever it takes to liberate our country."
An uprising against Col Gaddafi's rule in February has developed into an armed conflict pitting rebels against government forces and drawing in a Nato-led coalition with a UN mandate to protect civilians. |
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Menino80

Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Location: Hodor?
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| beck's wrote: |
This is Obama's goal. He is now and has been for the last 20 years a leftist intellectual. He believes in a weak America. He believes that the third world has been the victim of imperialism and that America must serve the UN in order to rectify this. This leftist liberal guilt, this fundemental anti-Americanism only wins him hatred and contempt among our enemies. It makes them stronger and it makes us weaker.
2012 can't come fast enough. |
You have such a skewed sense of propriety that you view any attempt to acknowledge that the rest of the world does not often care what our opinion is about politics and security is anti-American.
What makes us weaker is time. We lost .03% our population and our economy grew by 86% from 1939-1946, to say nothing of the post-war boom years. Everyone else is catching up. 45-74 was an anomaly. You obviously can't handle being #1 by a margin of 25%, it has be 50. How insecure.
America has often tried to play hegemon, and it often has failed. We have capabilities to influence but not change events. It has happened since Vietnam. Whenever we have ignored basic balance of power considerations and questions of nationalism and identity, which is often, we have failed. Believing that American reach should not exceed its grasp is not anti American, it's realistic.
To view this position as anti-American shows exactly what sort of foolish messianic viewpoint that you and people like you hold. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| beck's wrote: |
| This is Obama's goal. He is now and has been for the last 20 years a leftist intellectual. He believes in a weak America. He believes that the third world has been the victim of imperialism and that America must serve the UN in order to rectify this. This leftist liberal guilt, this fundemental anti-Americanism only wins him hatred and contempt among our enemies. It makes them stronger and it makes us weaker. |
Wrong.
Obama is an American exceptionalist
| Glenn Greenwald wrote: |
| It's long been obvious that Obama deeply believes in American exceptionalism, and I agree entirely with these commentators who say that [Obama's March 28, 2011] speech left no doubt about that conviction. |
| Steve Benen wrote: |
| The president wasn't subtle -- the United States isn't like other countries; ours is a country with unique power, responsibilities, and moral obligations. |
| Mark Kleiman wrote: |
| [Obama's March 28, 2011 speech exposed] one of the stupidest of right-wing talking points about Obama . . . that he somehow disbelieves in the exceptional nature of the American project |
| Adam Serwer wrote: |
| After Obama's speech last night. . . anyone who alleges the president doesn't believe [in exceptionalism] deserves to be laughed out of town. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Location: I walk along the avenue
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Beck wrote:
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In Iraq, Iran will fill the vaccuum when American troops are gone. Iraqi Christians live in fear and many have been murdered.
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Uh-huh. And who was POTUS when these anti-Christian pogroms started to get going in Iraq?
Last edited by On the other hand on Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I fail to see how snarking about friendly fire deaths helps the anti-war platform. |
There is no anti-war movement of any worth. The wars won't end. Snarking isn't the reason. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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2 interesting (and encouraging) rumors:
1. The acting Libyan foreign minister Obeidi has gone to Greece for some kind of negotiations. According to al-Jazeera:
"Abdel Ati al-Obeidi, Libya's acting foreign minister, told the Greek prime minister in Athens that Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi wants the fighting to end.
"It seems that the Libyan authorities are seeking a solution," Dimitris Droutsas, the Greek foreign minister, said.
He added that Obeidi planned to travel on to Malta and Turkey."
2. Qaddafi's son, Said (sp?), is also floating the idea of a transitional government. Reporter Anita McNaught says the version she heard was that daddy 'dafi would step down and that Said would step up as some kind of interim leader while a new government is formed. She also reported that the rebels have said all along they want the entire family gone.
**
While things are stalled on the ground it looks like there is diplomatic movement behind the scenes. Another report is that golden parachutes are being offered to various government officials.
I think we'll know things are getting seriously close to a solution when we hear the UN (or someone) is preparing peace keeping forces to step in. With every Arab country having its own problems, I can't imagine any of them would or could risk sending forces under the Arab League. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003 Location: Kuwait
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
2 interesting (and encouraging) rumors:
1. The acting Libyan foreign minister Obeidi has gone to Greece for some kind of negotiations. According to al-Jazeera:
"Abdel Ati al-Obeidi, Libya's acting foreign minister, told the Greek prime minister in Athens that Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi wants the fighting to end.
"It seems that the Libyan authorities are seeking a solution," Dimitris Droutsas, the Greek foreign minister, said.
He added that Obeidi planned to travel on to Malta and Turkey."
2. Qaddafi's son, Said (sp?), is also floating the idea of a transitional government. Reporter Anita McNaught says the version she heard was that daddy 'dafi would step down and that Said would step up as some kind of interim leader while a new government is formed. She also reported that the rebels have said all along they want the entire family gone.
**
While things are stalled on the ground it looks like there is diplomatic movement behind the scenes. Another report is that golden parachutes are being offered to various government officials.
I think we'll know things are getting seriously close to a solution when we hear the UN (or someone) is preparing peace keeping forces to step in. With every Arab country having its own problems, I can't imagine any of them would or could risk sending forces under the Arab League. |
Yes, they are on the one hand sending envoys out to get people on board with their ceasefire proposal and on the other launching fierce fresh assaults on Misurata, Zintan and some place near Tripoli which hasn't been mentioned before. As much as I want to believe this is a molecule of progress, I think they are stalling while they make a big push to grab whatever they can of rebel territory. Same as they tried to do to take Benghazi. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006 Location: China
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah grab as much as you can before a cease fire. Is there an anti war movement in Europe since they seem to be taking the lead in all this. Why the focus on the U.S? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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What kind of government do the rebels want? Here is one significant voice:
A leader of the rebel movement, meanwhile, sought to ease concerns from Western governments about its character and goals, emphasizing in an interview that the rebels will not allow Islamic extremists to hijack their plans to install a parliamentary democracy in place of Gadhafi's four-decade rule.
The issue takes on added importance as Western officials debate whether to send the rebels weaponry in an attempt to help them gain the upper hand over Gadhafi's superior troops.
"Libyans as a whole � and I am one of them � want a civilian democracy, not dictatorship, not tribalism and not one based on violence or terrorism," said Abdel-Hafidh Ghoga, vice chairman of the opposition's National Provisional Council.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/03/libya-rebels-gaddafi-news_n_844170.html |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003 Location: Kuwait
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| Yeah grab as much as you can before a cease fire. Is there an anti war movement in Europe since they seem to be taking the lead in all this. Why the focus on the U.S? |
There isn't a significant anti-war movement in Europe that I know of, except among misguided extremist Muslims, but nobody much listens to them except Special Branch.
I have no idea why the focus seems to be on the US, this is a UN backed NATO operation. To me it seems to be an excuse to blame Obama for a few more things; it's pretty depressing. |
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beck's
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:41 am Post subject: |
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Already Gadaffi is going back to his asymmetric terrorist default position. Latest word is that his troops are using insurrection strategy. They have chucked the uniforms and are now using the ubiquitous third world Toyota pick-up trucks armed with light machine guns and RPGs as replacements for the military vehicles.
We are heading into 'failed state'mode with endless insurgency--The half crazy Gadaffi versus the Mujahadeen. With Obama supporting the Mujahadeen forces, the same thugs with a history of killing US troops in Iraq. Things couldn't get more absurd.
And all this within a stone's throw of the soft underbelly of Southern Europe.
Let's all cross our fingers for some change in 2012. |
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Menino80

Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Location: Hodor?
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| beck's wrote: |
We are heading into 'failed state'mode with endless insurgency--The half crazy Gadaffi versus the Mujahadeen. With Obama supporting the Mujahadeen forces, the same thugs with a history of killing US troops in Iraq. Things couldn't get more absurd.
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Keep playing that terrorism card
http://progressiverealist.org/blogpost/gates-there-absolutely-no-evidence-libyans-support-al-qaeda
�no one should think the opposition is being led by al Qaeda or one of its affiliates.� |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Libyan wounded describe the hell of Misrata
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Misrata, Libya's third city, rose up with other towns against Muammar Gaddafi's rule in mid-February, and it is now under attack by government troops after a violent crackdown put an end to most protests elsewhere in the west of the country.
"You have to visit Misrata to see the massacre by Gaddafi," said Omar Boubaker, a 40-year-old engineer with a bullet wound to the leg, brought to the Tunisian port of Sfax by a French aid group. "Corpses are in the street. Hospitals are overflowing."
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"Imagine, they use tanks against civilians. He (Gaddafi) is prepared to kill everyone there ... I am thinking of my family."
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Fears of a massacre in Misrata are helping to propel efforts this week to try and secure a ceasefire in the North African oil-producing desert state. Sfax echoed to the sound of sirens as a stream of ambulances ferried the wounded to hospital.
"We cannot do anything against this massacre any more. We ask the Americans and the Europeans to put people on the ground and help us end these crimes," said another injured man, Imed.
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006 Location: China
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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| So if I understand this correctly the might of Europe and the Commonwealth were unable to deal with Gadhaffi's legions without U.S. help. |
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