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jinks
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Location: Formerly: Lower North Island
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 Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| winterfall wrote: |
| jinks wrote: |
| PigeonFart wrote: |
Hi,
I can't tell you the answer because i don't know. In fact, i'd guess that most english speakers don't know.
But i'm pretty sure there's a pedantic person out there who cares about such matters, and he's just the kind of person who would have "less" or "fewer" friends. :)
sorry i couldn't answer your question. |
You are probably right, but don't you think that English teachers should know?
As others have said, it is boorish to correct your friends' mistakes, but being an ENGLISH TEACHER and not knowing simple English grammar is pretty shameful. Saying that someone who has a working knowledge of his/her craft is "pedantic" is clearly ridiculous. Would you condone a similar lack of professional knowledge from chefs, drivers, nurses or computer programmers? |
You sound very Korean :). This is a very, very minute point. And its not appropriate either to apply an across the board generalization. It's not like this is a case with a nuclear physicist that miscalculated .001and blew up a reactor dooming the world as we know it. Neither does incorrectly teaching this in anyway effect the future livelihood of the students. In a written format, even college admissions people will strike it off as a stylistic form of writing and as another poster mentioned, people wouldn't pick it up in conversation where grammar rules typically don't apply.
Not everyone is born perfect |
I am not Korean and nor am I a grammar nazi. My point is that an English teacher should know this kind of stuff.
I agree that it is not the end of the world if someone is unaware of the difference between 'less' and 'fewer'. Just like it's not the end of the world if someone doesn't know the difference between parmesan cheese and crystalised ginger - but if a professional chef can't tell ginger from parmesan, then wouldn't you wonder what the hell that person was doing running a kitchen? |
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winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| jinks wrote: |
| but if a professional chef can't tell ginger from parmesan, then wouldn't you wonder what the hell that person was doing running a kitchen? |
Only if the chef went as far as labeling a block of Parmesan as "Exotic Ginger". Then the apologists will consider him a "Misunderstood Eccentric"  |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| As an English teacher you should know this kind of stuff and, especially if you're teaching adults, you should be able to tell them how acceptable it is and in what circumstances. Written v spoken etc..Not necessarily because it'll make a big difference to their lives but it's the kind of thing Korean adult students are always asking about and they're paying good money for your informed responses. |
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jinks
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Location: Formerly: Lower North Island
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:22 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, but it is just shabby not to know stuff about your job. If you are being paid to be a teacher, then you should know stuff about your subject. If you are not an English teacher then no one cares if you are unaware of the rules underlying language use.
I don't get your reference to apologists in your post - it sems that you are the apologist as you seem pretty bent on justifying why it is ok for an English teacher not to know about count / non-count nouns. |
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winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| jinks wrote: |
Sorry, but it is just shabby not to know stuff about your job. If you are being paid to be a teacher, then you should know stuff about your subject. If you are not an English teacher then no one cares if you are unaware of the rules underlying language use.
I don't get your reference to apologists in your post - it sems that you are the apologist as you seem pretty bent on justifying why it is ok for an English teacher not to know about count / non-count nouns. |
Not really an apologist. I just consider grammar a very minor thing since we're not English teachers here, we're EFL teachers. If we were ESL, than yea I'd understand the contentious points |
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oldtrafford
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:46 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, but it is just shabby not to know stuff about your job. If you are being paid to be a teacher, then you should know stuff about your subject. If you are not an English teacher then no one cares if you are unaware of the rules underlying language use.
I don't get your reference to apologists in your post - it sems that you are the apologist as you seem pretty bent on justifying why it is ok for an English teacher not to know about count / non-count nouns.
is that you Sook-ja!! |
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jinks
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Location: Formerly: Lower North Island
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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No, I'm not Sookja
Winterfall, stop tying yourself in knots trying to justify some English teachers not knowing basic stuff about the English language. |
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davemon
Joined: 16 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Fewer for countable.
Less for unknown quantity.
Teach them the correct usage. Just because "it happens" by uneducated people in the US or wherever, doesn't make it correct, it just makes a larger group with poor grammar. Please don't add to that group. |
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winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| oldtrafford wrote: |
Sorry, but it is just shabby not to know stuff about your job. If you are being paid to be a teacher, then you should know stuff about your subject. If you are not an English teacher then no one cares if you are unaware of the rules underlying language use.
I don't get your reference to apologists in your post - it sems that you are the apologist as you seem pretty bent on justifying why it is ok for an English teacher not to know about count / non-count nouns.
is that you Sook-ja!! |
All EFL teachers should know basic things about pedagogy in applied linguistics: How to select and use a corpus, organize lessons around frequency lists instead of grabbing any textbook, Know the difference between frequency lists derived from the BNC or American Contemporary English Corpus, lexicon analysis to provide level appropriate sentences, How to use concordance, understand how the memory curve works, know how to apply inference based learning, familiar with ERP and ELP; how to use, organize and apply them.
I can keep listing if you want.
These are very basic things in linguistics. If you don't know these, you don't belong here. 
Obviously most English teachers in Korea wouldn't know these "Basic" things. Not knowing, doesn't make you "Uneducated" or "Unqualified" either
Last edited by winterfall on Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Reise-ohne-Ende
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| winterfall wrote: |
| Obviously most English teachers in Korea wouldn't know these "Basic" things including certified English teachers. Not knowing, doesn't make you "Uneducated" either |
...? Is that not the definition of 'uneducated'? |
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winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Reise-ohne-Ende wrote: |
| winterfall wrote: |
| Obviously most English teachers in Korea wouldn't know these "Basic" things including certified English teachers. Not knowing, doesn't make you "Uneducated" either |
...? Is that not the definition of 'uneducated'? |
Maybe if your an elitist, that feels the need to crush the "Uneducated" masses by splitting hairs.
And may I add, that "Uneducated" by definition is subjective. |
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jfromtheway
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think being uneducated is a subjective matter, I think there are many different levels of of it. People here are, er, mostly equally educated, from a societal standpoint, at least. Some more, some less. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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All EFL teachers should know basic things about pedagogy in applied linguistics: How to select and use a corpus, organize lessons around frequency lists instead of grabbing any textbook, Know the difference between frequency lists derived from the BNC or American Contemporary English Corpus, lexicon analysis to provide level appropriate sentences, How to use concordance, understand how the memory curve works, know how to apply inference based learning, familiar with ERP and ELP; how to use, organize and apply them.
I can keep listing if you want.
These are very basic things in linguistics. If you don't know these, you don't belong here.
Obviously most English teachers in Korea wouldn't know these "Basic" things. Not knowing, doesn't make you "Uneducated" or "Unqualified" either
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If you don't know these things as an English teacher it makes you 'less educated' or 'less qualified' certainly, that's why decent schools pay more for people who have qualifications and would know stuff like this. While a student would probably not ask the teacher how the memory curve works or what Corpus they were teaching from, they often ask questions like 'how common is this word in everyday use?' The answer to which the expert in this area would know. Of course there's no point at which a teacher becomes totally qualified or experienced as we keep improving until we retire. However I would put the correct quantifiers for countable and uncountable nouns above the stuff you mentioned in terms of what is likely to come up in day to day lessons with adults. |
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winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
If you don't know these things as an English teacher it makes you 'less educated' or 'less qualified' certainly, that's why decent schools pay more for people who have qualifications and would know stuff like this. While a student would probably not ask the teacher how the memory curve works or what Corpus they were teaching from, they often ask questions like 'how common is this word in everyday use?' The answer to which the expert in this area would know. Of course there's no point at which a teacher becomes totally qualified or experienced as we keep improving until we retire. However I would put the correct quantifiers for countable and uncountable nouns above the stuff you mentioned in terms of what is likely to come up in day to day lessons with adults. |
This isn't an issue of qualification or certificates. My specialty in college was counter-terrorism and I never broached the subject of applied linguistics until I started teaching here. In the same vein, I've met dozens of certified English Teachers and English majors who never heard of or touched this stuff. What we're talking about is purely about knowledge. And if knowledge alone is enough to make you "Qualified" or "Educated".
True a student is never gonna ask you "Will I remember this word?" and it is almost equally unlikely they're ask you "Is this a common word?" But when your making comparisons that some knowledge is the very basis of a profession. Through the example of countable or uncountable.
Then likewise you can also bring up the issue of pedagogy. Which is involved in every lesson, no matter what language point your talking about that particular day. Are you using the right form in your teaching? In a way that will make sure the students will learn? Is whatever your doing and material your using definitively in the range of their ability? IMO effective teaching methodology and long term retention is more important than whether or not you can correctly recall a grammar point. Of course there are different opinions, that doesn't make someone else inherently "Less Educated" than someone else. "Less Educated" is a very derogatory, very subjective label. Citing societal averages doesn't buff up the argument either. Averages move depending on where you are. |
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nate1983
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| To an educated native speaker, confusing few/less, lie/lay, was/were, etc. does make you seem either from the trailer park, the ghetto, or a non-English speaking country. It's a pretty simple concept, and NOT a matter of colloquial vs. formal speech, that should immediately sound very wrong to a trained native speaker, which any English/ESL teacher should be. |
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