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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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Ruthdes
Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Korea's English ability is definitely better than China's or Japan's. I wouldn't expect them to best the Phillipines or Singapore, which are properly what my Chinese friends would call "colonial countries."
Korea's overall English ability is remarkably good considering its circumstances, its native language, everything.
Suck it, haters. |
Hmmm, i was going to say that Korea did better than The Philippines or Singapore, but you're right; they weren't included in the test. And that really is silly. As far as I can tell, this test is pretty useless in terms of ranking English speaking ability. There is nothing that I saw that really explained the methodology of the research or the way each participant was scored. What does "highly proficient" even mean? Also, are we talking about percentages of population? Educated Indians that I have met tend to speak English very well, but in such a huge country, there are presumably a large percentage of people who don't speak English at all. Then again, those non-English speakers probably didn't have access to this test, at least not at the same level as more wealthy, educated people.
Here is a quote from the report about testing methods:
| Quote: |
Standardizing measurement of adult
English proficiency
The EF English Proficiency Index (EPI) has
been created in this context as a standardized
measurement of adult English proficiency,
comparable between countries and over time.
It is the first index of its kind to give countries a
benchmark against which to measure the average
English competency of the working population. The
index uses a unique set of test data from over two
million adults who took free online English tests
over a period of three years. Because this group
of test takers is so diverse and the entry barrier to
taking an online English test is so low, the resulting
scores are reasonably representative of the average
English level of adults. While there is no guarantee
that this particular proficiency score corresponds
to the academic and economic goals set by an
individual nation, the EF EPI does provide a uniquely
standardized comparison of English proficiency. This
is useful for citizens and governments alike when
trying to evaluate the effectiveness of their English
language policies as compared to their neighbors� |
Doesn't seem particularly rigorous.
So yes, there are a lot of Koreans who speak very basic English, but no where near as many who speak at a functional level. If you go to Megabox, or to Cold Stone, or whatever, the university student serving you will usually be able to do so in decent English. But how many taxi drivers speak more taxi English than you speak taxi Korean? I'd say one in twenty for me. The small shops I go to in my neighbourhood rarely have English speakers. And I don't live in the boonies.
I'm not saying this to criticise Korea. I love living here, and I love that I can go to the movies and have an English speaker serve me. At the same time, I'm trying to learn Korean so that I don't need to. I don't expect everyone to speak English. This is Korea, not an English speaking country.
However, to publish a report that says that Korea is 3rd in Asia, without explicitly pointing out that quite a few countries were excluded, seems to be bad scientific method. Furthermore, the differences between scores: Malaysia 54.54; Hong Kong 54.44; SK 54.19; Japan 54.17, are tiny. I don't know about other science geeks out there, but I'm wondering if this is even statistically significant. What kind of statistical analysis was done on this data? How many subjects were tested? Etc.
I also think that the Korea Herald is equally to blame in this one. By pulling the "3rd in Asia" quote from the report, again, without identifying that two presumably high performing countries (Singapore and the Philippines) hadn't been tested, they really are up there in the bad journalism stakes. |
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TECO
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Hilarious - the Korean news link posted above shows some of the comments left by Filipinos, and they are not too happy with the Korean news article!
Japan, to echo previous comments, does not score high at all on English proficiency tests; in fact, I believe they score towards the bottom well behind neighboring countries like Taiwan, Korea and China. Frankly, for the amount of money and time they have invested in learning English over the last 50 years, and at all levels of society, their proficiency in the language is abysmal. It's just terrible. I'm of the impression that they just don't care about it anymore, unlike the Koreans who are kind of obsessed with English language education. I think the Japanese are simply over it and don't care if they learn English or not.
But why is she associating Economic prosperity with English language proficiency? In the 1940s - 1960s, Japan was one of the poorest countries in the World; did English help them to become one of the economic powerhouses of the world?
Every year, the University of Cambridge Examination Syndicate releases the results of it's Main Suite Examination (KET, PET, FCE, CAE) scores for English proficiency. The top scoring nations always include Malaysia, India, Indonesia, Iran, Pakistan, UAE, Sri Lanka, Hong Kong and Korea. Those bringing up the rear include Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam, China and, at the bottom, Japan. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Singaporean English or 'Singlish' is quite odd to hear, but it has it's charms. This is from an email my uncle sent me.
British English vs. Singaporean English
Who says our English is teruk? Just read below - Ours is simple, short, concise and straight-to-the-point.
WHEN GIVING A CUSTOMER BAD NEWS
Britons: I'm sorry, sir, but we don't seem to have the sweater you want in your size, but if you give me a moment, I can call the other outlets for you.
Singaporean: No stock!
RETURNING A CALL
Britons: Hello, this is John Smith. Did anyone call for me a few moments ago?
Singaporean: Hello, who call huh?
ASKING SOMEONE TO MAKE WAY
Britons: Excuse me, I would like to get by. Would you please make way?
Singaporean: S-kew me..
WHEN SOMEONE OFFERS TO PAY
Britons: Hey! Put your wallet away, this drink is on me.
Singaporean: No need lah.
WHEN ASKING FOR PERMISSION
Britons: Excuse me, but do you think it would be possible for me to enter through this door?
Singaporean: (pointing at the door) Can ah?
WHEN ENTERTAINING
Britons: Please make yourself right at home.
Singaporean: No need shy one lah!
WHEN DOUBTING SOMEONE
Britons: I don't recall you giving me the money.
Singaporean: Where got?
WHEN DECLINING AN OFFER
Britons: I would prefer not to do that, if you don't mind.
Singaporean: Don't want lah.
IN DISAGREEING ON A TOPIC OF DISCUSSION
Britons: Err...Tom, I have to stop you there. I understand where you're coming from, but I really
have to disagree with what you said about the issue.
Singaporean: You mad ah?
WHEN ASKING SOMEONE TO LOWER THEIR VOICE.
Britons: Excuse me, but could you please lower your voice? I'm trying to concentrate over here.
Singaporean: Shut up lah!
WHEN ASKING SOMEONE IF HE/SHE KNOWS YOU..
Britons: Excuse me, but I noticed you staring at me for sometime. Do I know you?
Singaporean: See what, see what?
WHEN ASSESSING A TIGHT SITUATION.
Britons: We seem to be in a bit of a predicament at the moment..
Singaporean: Die lah!!
WHEN TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED
Britons: Will someone tell me what hasjust happened?
Singaporean: What happened ah? Why like that one lah?
WHEN SOMEONE DID SOMETHING WRONG
Britons: This isn't the way to do it. Here, let me show you.
Singaporean: Like that also don't know how to do! |
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Slowmotion
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't consider Singaporean English and English from the Philippines as 'real' English. I don't know why Koreans do the whole phone English with people from the Philippines, it can make them develop other bad habits from broken English. |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| cj1976 wrote: |
http://web.me.com/plangbro/JAZZ_ENGLISH/JAZZ_ENGLISH.html
Found it. According to the author of Jazz English, SK is #121 in the world. Not sure where got that figure from though. |
I've seen something similar which ranked Korea as 75th or 76th. |
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Ruthdes
Joined: 16 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Slowmotion wrote: |
| I don't consider Singaporean English and English from the Philippines as 'real' English. I don't know why Koreans do the whole phone English with people from the Philippines, it can make them develop other bad habits from broken English. |
This is true, but the report pointed out that effectiveness of communication is more important that other measures (such as grammar presumably), but then said that no one is really sure how to accurately measure "effectiveness of communication". If that was what they were measuring, The Philippines and Singapore would surely score much higher than Japan, China or Korea.
Another link: http://www.ef.sg/epi/country-profiles/south-korea/
This is the report's country profile for Korea. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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So, let me get this straight, all the naysayers are basically saying "we suck at our jobs"?
Uhm folks, this is a GOOD thing. It makes it look like we're worth the time and money. It says "Hey, we do a good job". But then again, this is Dave's bizzaro world. |
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shifter2009
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Location: wisconsin
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
So, let me get this straight, all the naysayers are basically saying "we suck at our jobs"?
Uhm folks, this is a GOOD thing. It makes it look like we're worth the time and money. It says "Hey, we do a good job". But then again, this is Dave's bizzaro world. |
Well, don't want it to look too good or the might think they don't need us anymore. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Slowmotion wrote: |
| I don't consider Singaporean English and English from the Philippines as 'real' English. I don't know why Koreans do the whole phone English with people from the Philippines, it can make them develop other bad habits from broken English. |
This is incrediably ignorant and ill informed. I've lived and worked in Singapore and can tell you that the vast majority of the people there can speak perfect English. Do they choose to when they are with their friends, no. You go to a business, they will speak good English. At my job only good English was used. Every country has it's own slang, Singapore just happens to be more pronounced. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| BoholDiver wrote: |
If Asia meant China, Japan, and Korea, then Korea would be 3rd.
Better than Hong Kong? Malaysia? Singapore? Thailand? Philippines? Doubtful. |
If you could do a valid study about a countries English proficiency using Starbuck's employees as the sample, Korea would definitely out perform Thailand in English proficency. I have never gotten the impression that Thailand has the same English proficiency as Korea, especially amoung professionals like teachers etc. Thailand has a lot of women with western boyfriends that speak really good English, but so does Korea. Unfortunately because of Thailand's educational system, it's unlikely that it ever will outperform other countries in Asia. I think Indonesia would easily outperform Thailand. |
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Neil
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:16 am Post subject: |
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Not suprising, on recent trips back to Korea I've found the level of English amongst random people to be staggeringly high compared to the Japanese.
The reason is simply $$$$, China (mainland) is not a fair comparison, 90% of Chinese at best will simply not have access to high quality English education either privatly (hagwons) or in their public school system. Japan (and Taiwan) both spend far more on private education than any western country but both come far below the Koreans in hagwon spending. A Japanese newspaper I read about a year ago claimed the average Korean family spends a greater % of their income on education than the average American family spends on gasoline, which if true I found shocking.
As for Japan, TECO is right, the interest in English is far, far lower than in Korea, in the past year or two through some things have changed. English is to become complusory in Elementary schools from this year, the number of English classes in junior high is to be increased, high school English classes are to ban the use of Japanese in the classroom and maybe more importantly a few of the top companies are going to start asking for decent English from their new grad enteries.
However I believe it's common form after a diaster/economic uncertainly that a countries MOE will focus on science/math ect rather than humanities/foriegn languages to help with rebuilding and creating a new infrastructure. After recent events in Japan I can see the interest or value in English declining once more.
A bigger question for Korea would be, is the increased level of English ability that young Koreans now enjoy going to be worth the huge amount of personal debt that Korean parents have placed themselves in to achieve it. |
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nate1983
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Neil wrote: |
A Japanese newspaper I read about a year ago claimed the average Korean family spends a greater % of their income on education than the average American family spends on gasoline, which if true I found shocking.
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How is that shocking at all? I would imagine that the mean household annual expenditures on education in the US are also higher than on gasoline. Sending one kid to a private university will cost more than all the gas you'll consume in your lifetime. I live in the US and have paid for $10 of gas all year (U-haul fill-up when I moved in January). Even when I drove A LOT, never got over $150 a month, which is about the cost of one week of Korean lessons. |
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lowpo
Joined: 01 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| nero wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
Korea's English ability is definitely better than China's or Japan's. I wouldn't expect them to best the Phillipines or Singapore, which are properly what my Chinese friends would call "colonial countries."
Korea's overall English ability is remarkably good considering its circumstances, its native language, everything.
Suck it, haters. |
Where have you taught?
I have taught in Japan, South Korea, Thailand and China. South Korea would come last. |
I've also taught in China.
The key here is not to measure your students, but to measure how reflective your students are of the entire population. More Koreans study English than other Asians, and more business Koreans can speak English better than in other Asians countries.
BTW, Japanese are just terrible at English. |
We must have been in two different parts of China. I have found more Chinese that are more flunt in English than Koreans. |
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gyopochris
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| I have traveled to 7 Asian countries the past year and I would honestly say out of the 7 countries. Korea was 7th =/ |
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