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Jeunesse
Joined: 11 Nov 2009
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 Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| kenglish wrote: |
i don't think the prejudice is toward skin color but the overall look of... ugliness- of which dark complexion is a usual ingredient  |
You seem to think a dark complexion is inherently ugly. |
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MyNameIsNobody
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:48 am Post subject: Racism against dark skinned koreans? |
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| Quote: |
Sure it was/is "an American thing" as long as we include Central and South America too (and the Caribbean). I can't really speak about Canada beyond anecdotal stuff.
| travel zen wrote: |
| Most Africans think darker skin is better. |
Out of curiosity, what are you basing this on? |
My curiosity knows no bounds, so I wasn�t trying to offend you by asking this question.
| travel zen wrote: |
| I don't think you are black, but my family from the Caribbean, and their extended friends do not hold such an idiotic idea. |
Please do not check any boxes for me based on some black text you see written across your computer screen. And good on your West Indian relatives and friends who do not hold beauty against skin colour. Yes, I think colourism is bad. (Aside: It depends on where your West Indian family comes from, but it might be worth it to ask them about the use of the word �clear,� �claro� or �clair� in regards to race/colour.)
| travel zen wrote: |
I can only imagine that an oppresive slave society would think of the darker/lighter thing. How many shades of brown is there?
African people I've known forever, I can list the countries that couldn't care less about darker/lighter shades. I've been to West Africa and I'm going there again. |
Let me know if you object, but I place this under anecdotal evidence, not to say anecdotal information is worthless or to devalue the opinions of the people you know. However, I am familiar with anecdotal evidence to the contrary, and I would not ascribe a preference to �most Africans� based on this alone. More concretely, I have learned through psychology/sociology/anthropology courses and lectures that colourism pervades more than just the USA. I�m not claiming any expertise on the subject, but from what I recall in my studies, this includes the Americas, the Caribbean, and Africa (and others parts of the world).
| travel zen wrote: |
It might be something you have read in a book dated 1950 by Fitzgerald McKennon    |
Sorry, I�m not familiar with the title. I googled �Fitzgerald McKennon� and �Fitzgerald McKennon 1950�, but I don�t know what you�re referencing.
| travel zen wrote: |
It's not a black thing generally, its too unnatural. Do people really hate themselves? Not unless they have mental problems.
I would conceed that the Arab/Tuareg/Black African intermix has caused societal problems (slavery/genocide,etc) but black people do not want to be 'lighter skin' even then. |
There is a market for skin whitening/bleaching products in several African countries. I�m too lazy to go digging for my old course packets and other texts, but here are some sources that say colourism was/is alive throughout the world (mostly, I�m picking these sources because they have free, albeit limited, access):
Article: The widespread use of skin lightening creams in Senegal: a persistent public health problem in West Africa.
-Only abstract available
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/11982639/reload=0;jsessionid=3EF5012C0DFA59B72DEBD836AEE13DCF.jvm4
Article: Tanzania counts cost of 'white skin'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4032837.stm
Article: Fighting against skin lightening
-Kenya
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1114088.stm
Article: Is the fair skin worth the risk?
-Uganda
http://www.newvision.co.ug/D/9/34/749017
Article: Predictors of topical steroid misuse among patrons of pharmacies in Pretoria
-South Africa
http://www.safpj.co.za/index.php/safpj/article/view/451/426
Article: Complications of chronic use of skin lightening cosmetics.
-Only has abstract available; names some of the common active ingredients (hydroquinone, mercury and corticosteroids) in skin lightening products and their side effects
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18377596
Video: Skin bleaching on the rise in Ivory Coast
-Opinions from users, nonusers and sellers of bleaching products
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JcuLc5dxAE
Video: Skin bleaching and skin hate-subtitles in English, activate subtitles.
-France and French West Indies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEvvK-5jBkY&feature=related
Video: Everywoman - Skin Bleaching
-UK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4-22HfgZI4
Video: Lighter Skin Is More Beautiful, So Use a Bleaching Cream
-UK
http://www.youtube.com/user/crayonscribbleX#p/u/69/ZLo1pwDnAOI (Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/user/crayonscribbleX#p/u/70/g7z1Tip130s (Part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/user/crayonscribbleX#p/u/71/Ecjgyv9mjWc (Part 3)
http://www.youtube.com/user/crayonscribbleX#p/u/72/0bVAiP5NMFw (Part 4)
Book: Racism in the 21st century: an empirical analysis of skin color; Edited by Ronald E. Hall
-General introduction to racism/race as these labels evolved with the biological definitions
http://books.google.com/books/reader?id=LSCf0j5lNeYC&dq=colorism&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&source=gbs_atb
-Same book, but this section looks at colourism in North America, Central America, South America and the Caribbean
http://books.google.com/books?id=LSCf0j5lNeYC&pg=PA177&dq=colorism&hl=en&ei=-m6aTaHnI4TC0QH9gpW5Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=colorism&f=false
(Note that VR stands for vocational rehabilitation.)
Book: Shades of difference: why skin color matters; Edited by Evelyn Nakano Glenn
-Defines colourism and racism separately but doesn�t leave them unlinked; mostly focuses on Brazil, some Mexico and even less USA and South Africa
http://books.google.com/books?id=WewhspE2Q9UC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false
Book: Is lighter better?: skin-tone discrimination among Asian Americans; Edited by Joanne L. Rondilla and Paul R. Spickard
-Has some personal recollections from Asian Americans about colour
http://books.google.com/books?id=t-JLtPfRjnEC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
Book: Encyclopedia of body adornment; Edited by Margo DeMello
-Skin whitening across the globe
http://books.google.com/books?id=s0122BsqrZwC&pg=PA243&dq=skin+whitening&hl=en&ei=3I6aTZOdGeW_0QH0-eG9Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CEUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=skin%20whitening&f=false
Book: Encyclopedia of gender and society, Volume 1; Edited by Jodi O'Brien
-Section discusses colourism�s effect on marriage, education and employment; marketing of skin whiteners to Kenyan women; nose reduction surgery amongst Jewish women; double lid surgery for East Asians
http://books.google.com/books?id=_nyHS4WyUKEC&pg=PT181&dq=skin+whitening+africa&hl=en&ei=O9eaTemJL8iy0QH8rZC5Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
I�m not trying to characterize the opinions of all races across the globe. Colourism that favors lighter (and whiter) skin and certain other features is an issue in lots of countries. However, the extent and effects vary.
Thanks for disagreeing, travel zen. I learned a few things in pulling up these links, and I�m really tempted to watch the movie below.
Good Hair
-USA; Chris Rock
http://www.youtube.com/user/GoodHairMovie#p/u/14/1m-4qxz08So (trailer)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf8yY2RR1MU (interview) |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| The whole time I was in Korea (two years) I never saw anybody treated differently because of dark skin. The children in my classes never treated any of the other children differently because of dark skin. If dark skin was an issue you would hear about it or somehow see it in the children. Generally it's good looks or bad looks, maturity, also whether or not the child is looked upon as being dumb or inept, or geeky, similar to what you see in the West. Only in Korea the children are more actively abusive and uninclusive towards the other children that don't fit in. Much like what I have heard about Japan. |
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travel zen
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not offended. You can say anything (and many have!) online and I'll just chuckle 
| Quote: |
| have learned through psychology/sociology/anthropology courses and lectures that colourism pervades more than just the USA. |
Colourism, like anythingelse-ism exists, sure. But information from the courses on it I would consider anecdotal. If you're a teacher, you know you can pull anything and make a course on it.
In fact, you can find articles on anything. I can find articles that are the opposite, where people tan themselves to look darker, for instance.
Where men look for darker skin wives in tribes, the lighter skin ones are said to be weak or lazy, etc. That's why I dont source anything...you can find and source anything !!
I will agree that there are people who want to look like lighter, just as there are people who want to look darker as well. Most Africans, are ok with themselves and don't think about looking European, or Mulatto or anyhting else. I can bet that most Koreans dont need to look European with the eye lid thing either, ancedotal, but a good bet.
Chris Rock is funny, but he's doing a shtick (comedy). |
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MyNameIsNobody
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:01 pm Post subject: Racism against dark skinned koreans? |
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| travel zen wrote: |
I'm not offended. You can say anything (and many have!) online and I'll just chuckle
| Quote: |
| have learned through psychology/sociology/anthropology courses and lectures that colourism pervades more than just the USA. |
Colourism, like anythingelse-ism exists, sure. But information from the courses on it I would consider anecdotal. If you're a teacher, you know you can pull anything and make a course on it.
In fact, you can find articles on anything. I can find articles that are the opposite, where people tan themselves to look darker, for instance.
Where men look for darker skin wives in tribes, the lighter skin ones are said to be weak or lazy, etc. That's why I dont source anything...you can find and source anything !!
I will agree that there are people who want to look like lighter, just as there are people who want to look darker as well. Most Africans, are ok with themselves and don't think about looking European, or Mulatto or anyhting else. I can bet that most Koreans dont need to look European with the eye lid thing either, ancedotal, but a good bet.
Chris Rock is funny, but he's doing a shtick (comedy). |
First off, glad you weren�t offended. I�m somewhat new to the forums here, and I�ve upset a couple of people without trying to. I always like seeing the other point of view, but people aren�t as likely to share when they feel attacked.
Anyhow, I can�t attest to the veracity of all the sources I linked to or have studied through coursework, but I would disagree with calling them all anecdotal. In doing my online research, I came across a variety of sources, and I was selective in what I linked to above instead of taking the top ten hits. For example, expats and locals in several African countries have first-hand accounts written on their blogs about skin whitening. I also watched clips from some daytime TV shows. However, I chose not to link to them to minimalise the anecdotalism in my response.
Like you said, in academia, anyone can make a course about anything. However, most fields, especially the sciences, are self-policing. Some of the articles I linked to are based on clinical studies, field research, surveys, etc. If you�ve ever presented at a professional conference/symposium, you have to be prepared to back up your findings, and similarly, when you publish you have to be methodical and logical in how you write your article. Further, higher education and research constantly need to challenge the status quo and evolve. (Aside: There�s a pathetic joke often used by scientists about the meaning of the word �research�. You search and search again and again and again i.e. �re-� and �search�.) Also, if my professors based their courses solely or mostly on anecdotal information, I think I would demand my money back. While I understand that education is uneven across the board, my professors were not simple anecdotalists.
Now, I didn�t link to just scientific articles for four reasons. One, race/ethnicity/colour is very much an anthropological and sociological topic. Two, I don�t have access to many of the resources that would more strongly convey one point of view in relation to another. Three, I can�t read French, so I was out of luck on some articles. Four, people tend to get bored when I get too science-y (I actually have a huge interest in how race intersects with the natural sciences, particularly the evolving perception of how race connects with biology).
As I previously mentioned, I don�t knock anecdotal information. The documentaries I linked to are more anecdotal than scientific. Certainly, they draw on numbers and trends, but I can�t source their data. Hence, I do recognise their limitations. Also, I linked to Is lighter better?: skin-tone discrimination among Asian Americans, which describes preferred features amongst several Asian American groups and the effects at both the individual and group level. This is another source that relies heavily on the personal experience.
Were you expected to click on each link? Not really. In linking to a variety of sources, I was hoping to survey the different perceptions of race/ethnicity/colour across the globe. Forest for the trees? Maybe. Did I include every group? No. Instead, I deliberately focused on Africa. Did I unequivocally cover all of Africa? No. I only linked to articles about six countries: Senegal (west), Tanzania (east), Kenya (east), Uganda (east/central?), South Africa (south), and the Ivory Coast (west). Actually, I have a pet peeve about people who treat Africa and Asia (and several other places on this wide green earth) as indivisible countries.
To speak more directly to the initial question about "most Africans" preferring darker skin, I want to be clear in that I don�t know if this is true or false. I have heard more examples and studied a variety of material to the contrary, and I have only encountered a few examples of Africans preferring darker skin. I am more inclined to believe that this is the exception not the rule, mostly because I have only come across this as a reactive response to the preference for lighter skin. I know there are people who love tanning and want to achieve a darker tone. I don�t know how true this is for Africans. And of course, there is a portion of the African population that has no preference at all.
So, a few questions:
For you, what counts as a non-anecdotal source? Would it be possible for you to link to an article (or whatever medium) that suggests "most Africans" prefer a darker skin tone? I�m especially interested in what you perceive to be non-anecdotal sources and people who have this preference independent of a reactive response to a preference for lighter skin. You mentioned there are men in tribes who prefer non-lazy, strong, dark woman. Where does this occur? How common is this? Do these tribes� women prefer dark men as well? Are there other instances for a preference for darker skin with a differing reason(s)?
And to close here is a link to a Nigerian writer who presents �The Danger of a Single Story.� She doesn�t speak to colourism specifically, but speaks more to perception.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9Ihs241zeg&feature=player_embedded |
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murmanjake
Joined: 21 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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Is this why the ajummas of my neighborhood have been donning full face masks lately? Not an inch of skin showing, a wide brimmed visor, and dark glasses to hide the small open space left around their eyes.
They're afraid of getting uglier?
If I were a bit smaller it'd be the perfect disguise for committing crimes... |
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travel zen
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:22 am Post subject: |
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You want references? You'll have to give me some time.
I still don't know why you think people in Africa want lighter skin that burns in the sun, in the hottest region on the planet.
Even in Canada, I see the disadvantages even in that one important thing.
Anyway, give me some time to compile |
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MyNameIsNobody
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:33 pm Post subject: Racism against dark skinned koreans? |
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Hi again. Thanks for gathering those sources. Take as much time as you need.
To clarify, I understand the evolutionary advantage darker skin has in places where sun exposure is high. Also, I have not ever written that most Africans want lighter skin. Instead, I have given examples of particular groups in Africa that use skin lightening products. In doing my research, I kept reading that the market for skin lightening products has been growing, even in countries where these products have been banned. I�m not an economist, so I can�t speak to the rate of growth or consumption. But there are Africans, specifically Senegalese, Tanzanians, Kenyans, Ugandans, South Africans and Ivoirians, who use skin lightening products. I haven�t spoken for the 40+ other countries.
Also, I have never explained why Africans would prefer lighter skin. However, some of the other posters in this thread have discussed this topic in relation to a variety of peoples. I too can write about the why if you�d like, but I�ll spare you the essay unless you really want it.
Honestly, I have no interest in proving you wrong. As I said before, I have seen, heard and studied examples of Africans desiring lighter skin. I have also encountered a few cases where black Africans desire darker skin, but only as a reactive response to the preference for lighter skin. That said, I don�t believe I have a complete picture of skin colour preference in Africa. In asking you to support your belief that Africans prefer darker skin, I am hoping to expand my view of skin colour preference in Africa.
In my last post, I linked to a talk that Chimamanda Adichie gave about how a single point of view robs people of a stronger, more fleshed out understanding. Also, one of my favourite books is a novella called Flatland, written by Edwin Abbott Abbott. One of the greatest lessons that I took from this book is that I am limited by the very way I know something.
So, what I have learned seems to be entirely different from what you know. I am very interested in understanding why that is, and I look forward to reading/watching whatever material you provide.
Thank you. |
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travel zen
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Why are you killing me with kindness? Is it because I have darker skin ? LOL
People are generally happy with the skin they are in, so it will be easy to prove that. |
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Caffeinated
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| A teacher in my office had a whole array of plastic surgery done to her face, whitening included, to prep for her wedding. I'm surprised the groom recognized her on the wedding day. Luckily, the constant chatter about it at lunchtime is in Korean so I can just tune it out. |
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gyopochris
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Coming from Canada, I find it fascinating how darker/tanned people are perceived/symbolized so differently in Korea than my place of birth. |
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madtownhustl
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| sometimes I wish my K girlfriend would get a tan. I think they look better with a little color, personally. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Racism against dark skinned koreans? |
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| MyNameIsNobody wrote: |
| There is a market for skin whitening/bleaching products in several African countries. |
Here, too, apparently:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v500/pentatonika/wf.jpg
The sign reads "Polymerized Cosmetics, White Face." |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Koreans might associate dark skin with working in the sun,
but they seem to associate it with racial inferiority too.
The first year I was here, I had a student who was darker in skin than most other Koreans.
A boy teased her by calling her "아프리카 사람," or "African."
She responded by chasing him all over the school and pelting him with a textbook.
But that was 10 years ago.
I hope things have changed by now. |
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Mariella713
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Racism against dark skinned koreans? |
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| MyNameIsNobody wrote: |
Hi again. Thanks for gathering those sources. Take as much time as you need.
To clarify, I understand the evolutionary advantage darker skin has in places where sun exposure is high. Also, I have not ever written that most Africans want lighter skin. Instead, I have given examples of particular groups in Africa that use skin lightening products. In doing my research, I kept reading that the market for skin lightening products has been growing, even in countries where these products have been banned. I�m not an economist, so I can�t speak to the rate of growth or consumption. But there are Africans, specifically Senegalese, Tanzanians, Kenyans, Ugandans, South Africans and Ivoirians, who use skin lightening products. I haven�t spoken for the 40+ other countries.
Also, I have never explained why Africans would prefer lighter skin. However, some of the other posters in this thread have discussed this topic in relation to a variety of peoples. I too can write about the why if you�d like, but I�ll spare you the essay unless you really want it.
Honestly, I have no interest in proving you wrong. As I said before, I have seen, heard and studied examples of Africans desiring lighter skin. I have also encountered a few cases where black Africans desire darker skin, but only as a reactive response to the preference for lighter skin. That said, I don�t believe I have a complete picture of skin colour preference in Africa. In asking you to support your belief that Africans prefer darker skin, I am hoping to expand my view of skin colour preference in Africa.
In my last post, I linked to a talk that Chimamanda Adichie gave about how a single point of view robs people of a stronger, more fleshed out understanding. Also, one of my favourite books is a novella called Flatland, written by Edwin Abbott Abbott. One of the greatest lessons that I took from this book is that I am limited by the very way I know something.
So, what I have learned seems to be entirely different from what you know. I am very interested in understanding why that is, and I look forward to reading/watching whatever material you provide.
Thank you. |
I don't know about the whole of West Africa, but I do know A LOT of Nigerian women use skin whitening creams and want lighter skin. You see them everywhere in Nigeria, patches of lighter skin that's been burnt from all the harsh chemicals they use. Of course, not every one wants to be lighter...but there are advertisements EVERYWHERE for skin whitening treatments in Nigeria, you can see them randomly plastered up on the road side. The family on my fathers side are of Nigerian descent, and always called me 'uyai' (which means beauty) when I was growing up because they said I had "such nice white skin"...even now when I visit, kids in the street shout out how pretty my skin is (BTW I am about Jessica Alba's colour, perhaps a little lighter so I'm not even that white)...so yes, I would say lightER skin is seen as quite desirable by some. |
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