Korean Job Discussion Forums

[rumibaer]

My Korean friends have told me to apply to the well known schools like
Pagoda, and YBM ECC/ELS. Had anyone from this forum worked for them? Care to share your experiences ( war stories ^^ ) ?

[kimcheeking]

ECC is a crap shoot, most are bad but some (songpa) are good. I worked at songpa for 1 year pt-time on loan from ELS.

ELS sucks big time- don't work there they will lie, scam, & cheat you. They are basically a bunch of sharks with no sense of morals or ethics.

If I could find the slimey overlord for whom I used to work this is what I would do... and and
and

[Zyzyfer]

I used to work at the Cheonan ECC. It was awesome when I first started there, but I had Saturday classes. It's been going downhill really fast as of late, though...

[rumibaer]

wow... those are some *chilling* graphics there... erm so i take it YBM ELS is not good then! haha it's a shame- they do a really good job of showing off their nice facilities- and they ahve locations in kangnam and jongro... well. i guess there's always a bad side to something that appears too good to be true! so the search goes on....

[Lost Seoul]

Here are some previous posts about Pagoda hagwons:
=======================================
http://209.204.62.79/korea/index.cgi?read=123587
Re: Circus- burnout- act
Posted By: Johnny Corporate'
Date: Friday, 10 May 2002, at 10:01 a.m.
In Response To: Question on Pagoda (Oregon Duck)
Are you prepared to be a "performer" of sorts? Depending on the students and the day, your expected to have a steady variety of monologues and ample wardrobe once the snooze bar rings at 6AM. Are you a morning person? Can I refill your instant coffee? That's the invariable routine. I became a zombie over the course of my contact at Pagoda. But I left my mark for sure...
In terms of housing, think inside the box so to speak. Because, that's all you will be able to afford in terms of Kangnam. Shoe box. Unless you want to live in Itaewon the foreigner slum high on top of Namsan. Which means, getting up even earlier. It's a trade off. Insanity induced by constant Maxim refills conned off of your amicable students. The housing director, 3rd cousin to the Pagoda chairman is a real gem when it comes to picking real estate for your stay. Ask around, expect to pay five hundred thousand won for a shoe box you can call home.....keep it real hommie.
=======================================
http://209.204.62.79/korea/index.cgi?read=123606
Re: Question on Pagoda
Posted By: been there
Date: Friday, 10 May 2002, at 4:01 p.m.
In Response To: Question on Pagoda (Oregon Duck)
You have to take into account that your monthly rent will be about 300,000 - 400,000WON/month after the small key deposit they offer.
So, when looking at jobs, your salary is the same as other jobs posted that offer 300,000-400,000 won less.
=======================================
http://209.204.62.79/korea/index.cgi?read=129959
the Lowdown
Posted By: Ex Pagoda Person
Date: Friday, 14 June 2002, at 5:33 p.m.
In Response To: PAGODA - Pros and Cons? Is Kangnam good? (Smitty)
>I notice you pay your own housing. This is a good and bad thing I guess. Any advice?
Good and bad. On one hand you get to choose where you live. On the other you have to pay for it and you are looking to pay at least W400k a month for anything.
>What is with the one month of holidays? Does this include National holidays? Do you still get a contract bonus?
They are very good about the vacation. It is very smart of them but since they will work you like a dog you'll need it. You will teach 20 days a month. Also you will get national holidays off but you may have to work a Saturday.
You will still get your severance...it is not a bonus. Pagoda is excellent about paying what they owe you.
>The package seems borderline in many ways.
When it comes to money, it is very borderline. Kangnam is a fine place to work. The money at Pagoda might not be good but you will get paid and as long as you do your job, left alone.
Be warned that Pagoda is a professional operation. No hippy kid slack-assing is tolerated. It is a shirt and tie, well prepared lesson kind of place. If you are not toeing the line they will fire you. However, Pagoda people usually go straight into universities. I did. I learned a lot about teaching at Pagoda, mainly thru sheer volume of it and a professional atmosphere.
I also worked with a great bunch of people at Pagoda. I can honestly say the people I worked with there were more dedicated and professional than the people at my present university.
HTH,
Ex Pagoda Person
=======================================
http://www.eslcafe.com/korea/index.cgi?read=132710134485
Re: pagoda
Posted By: Briefcase Body
Date: Saturday, 27 July 2002, at 4:13 a.m.
In Response To: pagoda (kitsch)
Pagoda is becomming a sketchy place to work these days. While it is true that the teachers there were once looked after very well, that is not really the case at all nowadays. They are increasingly looking for "yes men" to abide by any policy that comes down the pipe. Any show of concern about changes to your job/work environment are shuffled under the table and through the maze of "managers" who don't have a clue about how to run a business. The management style consists of delaying every issue as long as possible, and creating stall tactics to kill issues quietly. If you are willing to eat whatever garbage is thrown your way, then you have nothing to worry about...if you are looking for a place where you actually have a say in what happens to your job/earnings, maybe keep looking around.
=======================================
http://www.eslcafe.com/korea/index.cgi?read=132710134624
Re: pagoda
Posted By: Donkey Hodey
Date: Saturday, 27 July 2002, at 9:23 p.m.
In Response To: Re: pagoda (Joel)
"They also don't go out of their way to screw you."
That may be true of years past, but it seems the last few months are a change of direction for them.
There's plenty of things being thrown at the teachers these days that they aren't happy with. And the thing it comes down to is money. They took away our Severence bonus for Saturday classes (this decision "supercedes the contract you signed"), they've limited the number of hours we can teach, long-time teachers (ie. teachers with big salaries) are being pushed out; 2 head teachers are GONE. The petition that was sent to management was met with a derisive snort and called "childish".
Pagoda is still heads and above any kiddie hogwon out there, but teachers are grumbling more and more in the teachers' area these days.
=======================================
http://www.eslcafe.com/korea/index.cgi?read=132710134621
Re: Popularity contest
Posted By: Donkey Hodey
Date: Saturday, 27 July 2002, at 9:14 p.m.
In Response To: Popularity contest (Hmmmmm.)
It's not "voting for your favourite teacher". It's "evaluating the way your teacher teaches" (in an ideal world, anyway). And yes, if you are in the lower 10% of the teachers for 3(?) consecutive months (ie. the worst 10% of teachers), they'll give you the boot.
=======================================
http://www.eslcafe.com/korea/index.cgi?read=132710143270
Pagoda Foreign Language Inst.
Posted By: Ian Long - [email protected]
Date: Thursday, 19 September 2002, at 12:10 p.m.
Just a word to the wise regarding this large and well-established employer of English teachers. This company may change the conditions of your contract, change the expectations stipulated in your contract, fire you without warning or reason, or fail to pay you money they owe you after they decide to fire you. In my case they did all of the above, even though I had worked for them for just under 4 years.
I would not recommend that anyone accept a contract from this company. There is no mutual respect, and no level of trust should be given them. If they were located in another country I would take them to court.
=======================================
http://www.eslcafe.com/korea/index.cgi?read=132710143332
Re: Pagoda Foreign Language Inst.
Posted By: scotty C
Date: Thursday, 19 September 2002, at 9:10 p.m.
In Response To: Pagoda Foreign Language Inst. (Ian Long)
and that's a fact...the Pag is becoming just like all the other 'bad' hogwans, probably end up being much worse if things proceed as they have been over the past short while...that's why they prefer innocent, naive, young teachers who don't know when they're being shafted....or who might know but are afraid to take action.
=======================================
http://www.eslcafe.com/korea/index.cgi?read=132710143423
Re: Pagoda Foreign Language Inst.
Posted By: Sanbon Pagoda Vet - [email protected]
Date: Friday, 20 September 2002, at 1:53 p.m.
In Response To: Pagoda Foreign Language Inst. (Ian Long)
Hi! Whilst working for the Sanbon Pagoda, I noticed that the woman who ran things, Mrs. Kim, was often quite touchy for no apparant reason at all. She also put us up in a cockroach infested apartment which took more than a couple of days to disinfest. All in all, Sanbon wasn't so bad but you could really do better than this school.
=======================================
http://www.eslcafe.com/korea/index.cgi?read=132710143514
Pagoda Foreign Lang. Inst.
Posted By: Ian Long - [email protected]
Date: Sunday, 22 September 2002, at 11:49 p.m.
For those teachers thinking of accepting a contract from this company, think again. It is a large company, with a good reputation in S. Korea; however; that doesn't seem to deter the company from treating its foreign teachers very poorly. This company likes to promote that they have teachers who are a cut above, but they treat those same teachers like garbage. Beyond the subtle disrespect, and disdain; they don't shy away from failing to pay their teachers, firing them for nothing at all, removing taxes to which they are not entitled, and I could go on forever. After almost four years of working for them I could spend the next year telling you things done to others or myself. When choosing a school to teach at, JUST SAY NO to Pagoda.
=======================================
http://www.eslcafe.com/korea/index.cgi?read=132710143694
Re: Pagoda
Posted By: emery
Date: Tuesday, 24 September 2002, at 3:25 a.m.
the Pag is becoming just like all the other 'bad' hogwans, probably end up being much worse if things proceed as they have been over the past short while...that's why they prefer innocent, naive, young teachers who don't know when they're being shafted....or who might know but are afraid to take action.

=======================================
http://www.englishspectrum.com/form2.php3?table=news_blackbook
No.144 : PAGODA RIP_OFF
Name: RIP_OFF
Date: 2003-03-11 00:43:25

Job Description I went for an interview today for the vacancies currently being
advertised by Pagoda on this site. Here's the real deal: 'guaranteed minimum salary'
1.8 M, BUT the rent on your apartment of 4-500,000 per month comes out of your
pay!!! So, the 'guaranteed minimum salary' is actually 1.3 M per month ;-( At least
that's what they offered me (Master's degree, CELTA teaching cert., previous
experience, excellent references. LOL!!! ) What kind of teachers are they hoping to
attract? (Oh, did I mention the split shifts starting at 7 am and finishing late at night).
Masochists, the truly desperate and other poor souls please contact Jonathan
Dozier - address somewhere on this site. The good news is that they have a great
Christmas party...
E-Mail [email protected]
===============================================
http://www.englishspectrum.com/form2.php3?table=news_blackbook
No.144 's Reply :
Re^2: PAGODA RIP_OFF
Name: What The??!!
Date: 2003-03-17 19:45:12
View: 33

If you did not like it then why stay for 4 yrs or more??No other school can
say that. How many teachers out there have stayed with one school more
than 4 yrs or more consecutively? As far as firing
you without notice that is ridiculus...I have taught here for several years
and I am happy with the results...I feel that you were let go because you
were not doing well or you failed to follow the guidelines that were set out. I
am happy where I am and so are many of the other teachers..We like it
here and don't want to go back working that crappy ass children hakwon or
YBM..Not that is a real shithole...

Get a life man!!

[Lost Seoul]

Here are some previous posts about ECC/YBM/Sisa franchise:

========================================
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobinfo/asia/sefer.cgi?display:988047166-6182.txt
Chris
[email protected]
English Teacher
Italy
Posted: Unknown

I am currently working in the Italian state school system, where I enjoy a very professional working methodology, and where my confidence in the ESL profession has been fully restored following my return from South Korea.
My statement is simply this, that the ECC/YBM franchises who buy into the main companies name are unregulated by the that head office, and as such the Directors of these private schools are free to treat teachers in any manner they see fit. There are no doubt good schools, but few teachers who leave positive statements about them actually leave the name of the school they work for, so it's difficult to estimate just how many good ECC schools actually operate.
I spent many hours corresponding to the ECC/YBM head office concerning the treatment I was receiving - and yes that treatment was very distasteful (I would be happy to share that experience with any new teacher deciding on a school for the first time). The head office appeared very concerned, and at least for that I am thankful, but no action was, or has to my knowledge been taken.
English teachers did remain following my departure, and their determination to stay with their contracts will always impress me, they are the backbone of ESL. For me, I was pushed further and deeper into a no win situation and was forced to leave - to my deep regret, as I met wonderful friends and simply loved South Korea.
A few points:
1. ECC head office must regulate the Directors buying their name OR continue to take the massive onslaught of negative comments, which teachers have the right to express.
2. Teachers working for professional, responsible ECC franchises should leave the name of that school for all to see.
3. Much of the problems seem to start from the foundations of TEFL; Cheap, unprofessional TEFL courses, terrible recruiters and then the schools.
4.If you are in a unpleasent situation, then always remember you are the professional. I always thought that myself, and now I work to the high standard I expected from ESL teaching.
Well, there's my little contribution to Daves, I hope it was a little constructive and not too angry in its tone.
====================================
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobinfo/asia/sefer.cgi?display:988902650-15265.txt
Allain B. [email protected]
For my own security I prefer not to say where I am at this moment.
Posted: May 16, 2001

Yet another "Korean" experience. In the last three weeks 5 Experienced ESL teachers quit working for ECC (Located in 'Howon Dong' area in the City of 'Uijanboo' near Seoul).
The reason for my leaving:
1- 'Extreme Rudeness' and sometimes violent behavior from the owners Mr. & Mrs. YU, towards employers who demanded basic respect.
Other teachres - Mike, Zac, Jullie, and a Korean teacher named May secretly left the city without getting in serious discustions with the owners. I on the other hand stayed and demanded the owners respect and honesty; as they could not swallow their misplaced pride, before an "unworthy employer" they actually tried to get into physical fight with me. Their attempt was stopped by interference of my Korean friend. I now think the other teachers were wiser than I was. I will be taking propper legal action to put these pepole where they belong.

2- 'Dishonest Contracts' that would force us, the teachers work for our 10 days annual vacations that were supposed to be Paid vacations. These smartly written contracts would also allow the school to spread our class hours and give us classes anytime of the day or night.

3- 'State of Chaos', we were not given the books we needed to teach the students from, our teachers room was in fact a narrow balcony turned into a room for 12 teachers, you can imagine how we had to actually push our way through to be able to rest on a chair during the breaks. I had t borrow books from my students to be able to teach them!!

4- 'Home On The Railroad'; I was given a flat in a house right next to the busy Railroad track/Subway that runs between Seoul and Uijanboo, with trains passing every five minutes. Needless to say,most nights I had a hard time going to sleep. Can you imagine just to save $20 to $30 a month, YUs chose to rent a flat there and not in the next block!

**Be aware: These pepole will do anything to get new teachers. They have already told me that if I put my experience with them on the Net, they will fight back. Also this school owner has 3 ECC schools in Uijanboo City, and as he has been desperate for teachers, he have used his business friends such as 'Korea Herald Kids School' to help him recruit new teachers.

The amazing thing is that these people prefer paying lots of money to hire new teachers, over changing their abusive behavior and dishonest contracts to encourage the teachers to stay and not to quit!

I will gladly support you with more inforamtion if need be.

=================================
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobinfo/asia/sefer.cgi?display:989579792-15656.txt
May 11, 2001
Posted: May 16, 2001
Barry VanAlstine
[email protected]
Pukpundang, South Korea

I just read the ECC message. There may be some franchise schools that may have shady directors, but ECC Pukpundang isn't one of them.
I'm not the school director or anyone else of authority here. I'm just a teacher that has worked at the school for almost 3 years.
A few points about our school:
1) It is a branch, NOT a franchise. As such our manager has to answer to his higher ups.
2) Mr. Je is a great manager. He is honest and friendly. He helps out whenever he can.
3) To my knowledge nobody has ever been cheated on their paychecks or wrongfully dismissed (or "rightfully dismissed for that matter)
In conclussion, let me say this. There are teachers that may have had a very bad experience with some of the schools, but ECC Pukpundang isn't one of those schools. I have enjoyed my time here and am currently planning on extending my contract for another year.

=====================================
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobinfo/asia/sefer.cgi?display:1030329309-9253.txt
Posted: August 25, 2002
I was at ECC wonju for one year. I know, ECC is supposed to be pretty bad, but the one I was at wasn't that that way. It is a franchise and doesn't follow all the ECC guidelines (for better or worse) including the contract. There is no deposit you have to make or any crap like that other ECC schools pull. When I arrived, I did have a morning Saturday class, but my boss axed it a few months later. All in all, it is not a bad place to start out. You always get paid on time and the apt. is ok, nothing special. Wonju is somewhat of a boring place, but fairly close to Seoul.

====================================
http://www.englishspectrum.com/form2.php3?table=news_blackbook
No.108 : ALL ECC"S
Name: Steven Date: 2002-11-07 14:26:27 View: 165
I wanted to start a discussion on how ECC has annoyed people. just post
your comment.

ECC Daerim is not a good place to work. Supervisor name is Kimerbley,
and many foreign teachers have had many problems with her. Alot have left
as a result of her wrong doing. She is hardline and has a hatred or foreign
teacher after seeing so many come and go. She has work for 10 yrs in
English school and doesn't communicate with the foreign teachers. She
only communicate by email or through the korean partner teachers.
The seniour korean teachers in the school informed me of her attitude to
foreign teachers. Having work for this long has made her bitter and she
presumes all foreign teachers are only in korean to drink beer and party
everynight and neglect their teacher duties.
You would expect an understanding supervisor not to hold pre-concieved
notion on foreigners. She is a racist for holding these views.
====================================

http://www.englishspectrum.com/form2.php3?table=news_blackbook
No.108 's Reply : Re: ALL ECC"S
Name: Ashlee Date: 2003-02-20 01:09:26 View: 5
ECC DAERIM SUCK BIG TIME - so do the students and the owner - i left
pronto and was happy to give them the airfare, visa money and relocation fee
back as well as pay for anotherflight to japan to get out of the shonky under
PAID contract - good luck to those still working there - now I have a fab job in
Hongik better pay better house (ie no SHARING) better students and life is
grand. Steven where r u? what happened when u left?
=====================================
http://www.englishspectrum.com/form2.php3?table=news_blackbook
No.108 's Reply : Re: ALL ECC"S
Name: Christine Date: 2002-11-07 14:29:48 View: 69

Stay away from ECC Banpo!
You've been warned.

====================================
http://www.englishspectrum.com/form2.php3?table=news_blackbook
No.111 : ECC Seodaemun-gu
Name: Louis Date: 2002-11-26 09:54:12 View: 58
I was fired from ECC after having worked there for five months. I consider it
to be a tremendous favor on their part as I was miserable there and am
much happier at my new school. I feel awful for the folks who are still there
and afraid to test the waters for something better. The school has the usual
flaws, inefficiency, disorganization etc. What it also has is a fascist for a
director. The mind games and abuse that this women inflicts on her
workers is a crime. It is difficult to elucidate here. Psychological warfare is
really the best analogy I can offer. If she doesnt like a teacher, she abuses
them until they break or leave or both. There is no cultural
misunderstanding here, this women is a petty, vindictive and evil person.
Also, the owners of the school are dishonest and cannot be relied upon to
fullfill their contractual obligations. I would suggest that anyone considering
working at this school, consider otherwise.


====================================
http://www.englishspectrum.com/form2.php3?table=news_blackbook
No.114 : YBM Sisa ECC franchise in Jeonju
Name: J Date: 2002-12-02 22:36:20 View: 43
YBM Sisa ECC franchise in Jeonju.
By .
YBM Sisa ECC franchise in Jeonju.By .
For firing a teacher who posted something negative about the school on
www.eslcafe.com

She called the boss a liar and he fired her.

We want to know why she called him a liar and why he could not provide
her with a warning bout posting messages about the school instead of firing
her????

======================================
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=203
kimcheeking

Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 296
Location: Land of the Morning Calm
Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 7:50 am Post subject:

my advice is to avoid SISA, any SISA. I worked at chongno about 4 years ago... I was not impressed and felt like I was a dilbert like drone in a machine that didn't know who I was or cared about anything. Plus I felt that they really treated the Korean staff poorly- this caused tension in the office.
==================================
http://www.englishspectrum.com/form2.php3?table=news_blackbook

No.150 : Mr. John, ECC Namyangju
Name: LBWood
Date: 2003-03-26 18:59:39
View: 7

I am writing this message to warn all who are considering teaching in
Korea to avoid Jeon Byong-O (AKA "Mr. John") of ECC Namyangju. The
school is actually owned by Kwan Hye Jin, but is is operated by the
aformentioned Mr. John, who may be her husband.

Mr. John is one of the worst bosses you could ever have the misfortune of
having. He is greedy, stingy, and short-tempered, with little ability to think
logically. Because of this, the atmosphere and morale in the school is
extremely poor. His attitude is that since he has paid a recruiter fee the
teacher is thus his property. In my case, because I had teaching
experience he actually tried to sell me to another school for profit.

Even worse, he is an unrepentant criminal. My contract stipulated that from
my salary 3.3% Korean taxes and 4.5% pension was to be deducted, and
that the pension money would be refunded when I left Korea. When my
year drew to an end I found that he had been committing tax and pension
fraud. He had not remitted either amount to the government. I expected to
get a 9% lump-sum pension refund (my 4.5%, plus the employer's 4.5%)
from the pension corporation, but found that he had not even registered with
the pension corporation despite being required to do so by law.

With the help of the International Tax Office of the National Tax Service,
and the Ministry of Labour, I was able to get most of my 4.5% pension
contribution refunded. At the time of the final refund however, he attacked
me physically and I had to flee the building (fortunately with the money
already in hand).

Take my word for it, you do not need this kind of person in your life. There
is also some reason to believe that the tax fraud is being committed on the
advice of ECC's head office, so I would suggest you avoid the entire chain.
===========================================

[rumibaer]

many thanks Lost Seoul, for quite the comprehensive listing of all posts regarding Pagoda and YBM! I think I had read most of the Pagoda ones, but many of the YBM SISA posts were news to me. I guess I'd better stay the hell away from YBM ECC! or all YBM's perhaps.... this is good to know, although depressing as well- as I'm nearing square one again.

feels like a lose/lose situation... the small random hagwan's i hear about just don't seem to be credible places, and I'm loathe to trust a place whose name I've never heard of- but then the "so-called" reputable establishments like Pagoda and YBM, while are recommended to me by korean natives- seem to have a general bad reputation among the teachers in this forum who have had 1st hand experience with them.

~aigoo....

[Homer]

Worked at an ECC in Busan for 2 years. It was a good place to work.
No cheating on the contract. Lived up to all they said.
was a 6 day schedule but that was standard back then.

[paul]

Regarding the YBM-ECC-ELS posts: Don't mistake ECC for ELS!

ECC are kids' hawgwons and I've never heard anything good about them from anyone I know.

On the other hand....

YBM-Sisa Young O-Sa in Chongno is one of the best school's in Seoul City. I worked there for a year, full-time, and had a lot of support from the British director and the two native English assistants. Not to mention all of the ESL teachers there who take their job seriously, with a grain of salt.

There are more than 30 FULL TIME TEACHERS at the Chongno location, with an additional 20 part time staff and very few, if any, teachers complain about the way things are operated there.

Also, I have received very lucrative, legal, extra work from YBM in Chongno. As long as you are straight with them, they will support and protect you to the end of your contract and beyond if necessary.

Almost every person you will be involved with are native English speakers who honor, respect and enforce traditional western working conditions. Plus, they offer 10 million won key money so you can get yourself a cool place to stay while in Korea.

I have been here in Seoul two years, I know many English teachers who work for a variety of ESL institutes and so far none of them measure up to YBM-Sisa in Chongno.

[desultude]

I have been told that YBM has a specific policy to not hire blacks. That is enough information for me to not teach there.

[paul]

desultude wrote:]I have been told that YBM has a specific policy to not hire blacks. That is enough information for me to not teach there.

Not true. There are at least two blacks working for YBM/ELS in Chongno, and another working for E4U around the corner.

You should ckeck out the school for yourself before making a decision on something you heard. Many good opportunties are lost that way.

[kimcheeking]

[Squaffy]

Pagoda - if you get to teach adults. If not, forget it.

[FierceInvalid]

A couple of things about YBM/SISA I found out while in the throes of an "I gotta teach adults, the kids are driving me nuts" phase:

-They say they offer key money, but in reality almost nobody actually gets it, because they run a thorough credit check of the landlord/building owner and have ridiculous criteria that almost none of them meet.

- When you start, you have to do your time working a hellish split shift. Apprently this gets better after you gain a bit of seniority (I don't how long this takes - input, anyone?)

That said, minus the schedule and crappy money (especially considering you don't get free accommodation), the atmosphere seems fine and most of the teachers seem pretty content, at least on the surface - I don't teach there but I study Korean there, and it always seems like a pretty positive vibe all around.

[desultude]

I stand corrected. I know a black man who told me that it was the case with YBM in Seoul. I have no reason to disbelieve him. It could vary by school/location. It might just not be true.