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RMNC
Joined: 21 Jul 2010
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 Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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And always remember: You get subsidized housing, a $2000+ paycheck every month, and the privilege of living in Moonland, all for what amounts to doing incredibly easy work.
It beats roofing or being a bank teller in the wrong part of town any day. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Fishead soup wrote: |
| You don't see anywhere near the amount of complete nuttjobs these days. |
I'd say that even though the level of genuine professionalism in ESL in Korea is still really low, it seems to me that things are no longer as aggressively unprofessional. |
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ytide
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
hiring recent uni grads who have never traveled, who have no interest in the local culture, or who actively refuse to adapt is really not a good idea. They're still in that 'I'm so @#$%ing smart' phase, and while they may openly state that they want to experience another culture, all that they really want is to be treated like a king and act like a tourist.
80% of the bitching and moaning is a direct result of this. 20% is the genuine problems with hagwons and schools... or the students, but that's part of being a teacher. |
I once believed this. Before I went to Korea I certainly did. "Some of those people must complain about the sky being too blue", I said to myself.
My thinking changed a lot actually after teaching in Korea. I realized, that Korean-ESL is (sorry for the cliche) a roll of the dice (the chance of each outcome is roughly the chance of rolling that number):
- Roll a 1: Terrible experience, "Hagwon Hell"
- Roll a 2 or 3: Bad experience, tough conditions, terrible overwork, hostile coworkers, get corners cut against you re salary and benefits and/or accommodations... worth complaining about but ultimately liveable if you play your cards right.
- Roll a 4 or 5: Neutral experience, the good balances out the bad. Make your money and complain at most about trivial things or cultural annoyances.
- Roll a 6: Get lucky. Be the "(S)he works less than half my number of classes and is paid 300k more!" person with a boss that babies his foreign employees.
[Danger: If you roll a 6, though you may have a good time, you are not seeing the real Korea. Although you win in one sense you lose in another. #6s are least likely to learn to read Hangeul, I expect].
It is unfair for those rolling 5s and 6s to attack people who roll 1s and 2s and 3s as "whiners", etc. Switch jobs and see who changes tunes! |
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winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ytide wrote: |
| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
hiring recent uni grads who have never traveled, who have no interest in the local culture, or who actively refuse to adapt is really not a good idea. They're still in that 'I'm so @#$%ing smart' phase, and while they may openly state that they want to experience another culture, all that they really want is to be treated like a king and act like a tourist.
80% of the bitching and moaning is a direct result of this. 20% is the genuine problems with hagwons and schools... or the students, but that's part of being a teacher. |
I once believed this. Before I went to Korea I certainly did. "Some of those people must complain about the sky being too blue", I said to myself.
My thinking changed a lot actually after teaching in Korea. I realized, that Korean-ESL is (sorry for the cliche) a roll of the dice (the chance of each outcome is roughly the chance of rolling that number):
- Roll a 1: Terrible experience, "Hagwon Hell"
- Roll a 2 or 3: Bad experience, tough conditions, terrible overwork, hostile coworkers, get corners cut against you re salary and benefits and/or accommodations... worth complaining about but ultimately liveable if you play your cards right.
- Roll a 4 or 5: Neutral experience, the good balances out the bad. Make your money and complain at most about trivial things or cultural annoyances.
- Roll a 6: Get lucky. Be the "(S)he works less than half my number of classes and is paid 300k more!" person with a boss that babies his foreign employees.
[Danger: If you roll a 6, though you may have a good time, you are not seeing the real Korea. Although you win in one sense you lose in another. #6s are least likely to learn to read Hangeul, I expect].
It is unfair for those rolling 5s and 6s to attack people who roll 1s and 2s and 3s as "whiners", etc. Switch jobs and see who changes tunes! |
+1. Most people only roll once before they burn out and pull a runner. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| ytide wrote: |
| It is unfair for those rolling 5s and 6s to attack people who roll 1s and 2s and 3s as "whiners", etc. Switch jobs and see who changes tunes! |
Okay, but you also can't really assume that just because one person has a horrible experience at a school that the next person won't have a great time.
I've experienced the 'hell'... and I was gone within a month and a half. I know that things can get bad, but honestly if they're really THAT bad, then you're not going to last very long... and if you do, you shouldn't. If it's a serious or even semi-serious complaint, the answer is almost always 'QUIT'. Don't even worry about the money if it's that awful... and if you didn't have a back-up plan, then that's poor planning on your part.
But then, if you look at the threads here, most of them are not asking about teaching methods, or what to do, or materials... the people who genuinely try to do well in this job get minimal attention, or are ignored completely.
Most people are whining about not enough time off, getting out of extra classes, their co-teachers not helping them enough, Korean hygeine, how to get around visa regulations, MONEY, or how they haven't got a clue what to do.
I think that's a pretty accurate reflection of your average ESL teacher in Korea-- utterly clueless and purely self-interested... and it's amazing how people with no qualifications, experience, creativity, interest or ideas on how to improve can actually get upset when they are criticized for not doing their job properly. I would even go so far as to say that a lot of ESL teachers are incapable of even setting a moral standard for their students, because they don't know what that is, or they don't care, or think it's BS.
It's not really their fault... they're usually young, aimless and they're used to not caring and having it easy. They figure 'well, I'm still young and this isn't what I want to do with my life' so they put zero effort into it, dismiss it as a 'temporary thing', and try to extract as much money and time off out of it as they possibly can.
So yeah, basically:
'I'm not doing this forever'= 'Who cares if I'm good at this stupid job? I'm here. PAY ME.'. |
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austrian123
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
| ytide wrote: |
| It is unfair for those rolling 5s and 6s to attack people who roll 1s and 2s and 3s as "whiners", etc. Switch jobs and see who changes tunes! |
Okay, but you also can't really assume that just because one person has a horrible experience at a school that the next person won't have a great time.
I've experienced the 'hell'... and I was gone within a month and a half. I know that things can get bad, but honestly if they're really THAT bad, then you're not going to last very long... and if you do, you shouldn't. If it's a serious or even semi-serious complaint, the answer is almost always 'QUIT'. Don't even worry about the money if it's that awful... and if you didn't have a back-up plan, then that's poor planning on your part.
But then, if you look at the threads here, most of them are not asking about teaching methods, or what to do, or materials... the people who genuinely try to do well in this job get minimal attention, or are ignored completely.
Most people are whining about not enough time off, getting out of extra classes, their co-teachers not helping them enough, Korean hygeine, how to get around visa regulations, MONEY, or how they haven't got a clue what to do.
I think that's a pretty accurate reflection of your average ESL teacher in Korea-- utterly clueless and purely self-interested... and it's amazing how people with no qualifications, experience, creativity, interest or ideas on how to improve can actually get upset when they are criticized for not doing their job properly. I would even go so far as to say that a lot of ESL teachers are incapable of even setting a moral standard for their students, because they don't know what that is, or they don't care, or think it's BS.
It's not really their fault... they're usually young, aimless and they're used to not caring and having it easy. They figure 'well, I'm still young and this isn't what I want to do with my life' so they put zero effort into it, dismiss it as a 'temporary thing', and try to extract as much money and time off out of it as they possibly can.
So yeah, basically:
'I'm not doing this forever'= 'Who cares if I'm good at this stupid job? I'm here. PAY ME.'. |
Amen, you hit it right on the nose!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:53 am Post subject: |
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A few comments on what has been said thusfar.
In the 60's and 70's the powers that be in South Africa realised that we needed every White that we could get and decided to encourage immigration from the UK.
The English arrived in droves and were marked by one thing; their readiness to moan. An indignant style that somehow made the bitching more pronounced. They also weren't that keen on a bath or shower, but that was a far cry from their rabid propensity to complain.
I think it logical for arrivals to kick up a stink (I mean grouse) and not necessarily be expected therefore to take off home again. Yes, that's right, they always called it 'back home' about 50 times a day within our earshot and drove us bats. Not all of them, but the great majority.
I think for all folks it's natural and just venting. In any case, they could not simply return home after uprooting themselves at great fanfare and cost.
I agree with Austrian that it is risky for a youngster to default into EFL. One year's savings is not enough to kickstart anything on return; at least 3 year's worth to call it something. And after one year or so the teacher starts getting into stride and gaining some expertise in EFL.
After 3 years the gap between making it at home is accentuated by the dropoff in skills required by the home job market. The poor teacher gets into a world of dissonance, having become proficient in EFL.
So I think his advice is sound. Any newcomer should think what he/she is doing, get a plan and stick to it.
Another poster mooted that EFL teaching is a bit of a yawn, easy peasy.
I must admit I never found it such. I certainly knew I'd been doing something after each workday. I'll accept that his experience has been different though.
An effort commensurate with the task is often the only way to go, so that even the slacker has to come to terms. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| shifty wrote: |
Another poster mooted that EFL teaching is a bit of a yawn, easy peasy.
I must admit I never found it such. I certainly knew I'd been doing something after each workday. I'll accept that his experience has been different though.
An effort commensurate with the task is often the only way to go, so that even the slacker has to come to terms. |
It's easy if you no longer care, are helplessly letting other people tell you what to do, and then secretly, quietly blaming them if it doesn't work. I don't think this is always an ESL thing though-- it's pretty much how a lot of things are everywhere. It's part of the whole 'yeah, my job sucks' attitude that almost everyone has. It's part of being a university-educated human being in a market where white collar jobs are kind of at a premium... you think you're above everything else.
Very few people in the world actually seem to enjoy working. They enjoy the money, but the work itself is something to be tolerated/endured in order to get that paycheck. And this attitude is so widespread that nobody really even questions why they're just 'enduring' their job... they just do it because it's what everyone else does. Their real lives happen after work-- in clubs, bars, on vacation, etc. That's what life is really about-- leisure and perceived success. It's why people take awful jobs that pay a lot of money-- so that they don't have to work for as long, and so that people will think they're successful.
And with ESL, it's actually strangely shameful to say 'yes, this is who I am, this is my job, I want to be the best ESL teacher I can possibly be'... because it's set up to be a stepping stone for young people, and almost everyone thinks 'if you're in this game for more than a few years, there's something wrong with you'. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:38 am Post subject: |
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ESL Milk, I had in mind something more everyday and practical.
In an EFL classroom there has to be constant change of focus to retain the students' attention.
If the teacher fails to make the effort to bring this about then the alternative becomes a disruptive class which is even more tiring.
To make best effort is 'path of least resistance' I meant. I'm just as lazy as the next man. |
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tanklor1
Joined: 13 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:04 am Post subject: Re: What I've noticed about ESL in Korea |
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| austrian123 wrote: |
1. The market is not as bad as many on Dave's proclaim. I easily found employment as a TOEFL teacher and as a regular esl teacher at two different hagwons. At my TOEFL hagwon I feel like a legitmate teacher....however at my other hagwon teaching esl is joke. I can't believe I get paid for what I do there.
2. The wordwide recession seems to have improved the quality of foreign esl teachers in Korea. I mean I've heard about the many stereotypes of esl teachers being unemployable back home, being dateless etc. But it seems the recession has brought in droves of foreigners who have the skills to be employed at home, but the market being so bad it seems that desperation has been the main cause of the influx of foreigners into Korea recently.
3. I can't believe the b*tching, moaning, whining and the complaints I hear from foreigners about teaching in Korea. What I don't understand is if these people want to complain so much...why stay? |
I say "Cliche" and leave it at that. You don't feel like a teacher; you either are or you aren't. Most of us aren't and the Korean side's expectations are leveled as such.
Low expectations mirror low stress jobs; low-stress jobs lead to fantasies of entitlement which leads to whining.
A real teacher is more than being able to speak in front of a group of kids for a period and be about their way. Most of us here are not real teachers and have no idea about what a real teacher goes through.
If the majority of people teaching here had to go through all of the trials of a real teacher they wouldn't be here.
Plain and simple. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| shifty wrote: |
In an EFL classroom there has to be constant change of focus to retain the students' attention.
If the teacher fails to make the effort to bring this about then the alternative becomes a disruptive class which is even more tiring. |
See, this is something that I fully disagree with.
It's not your job to keep them entertained, which is what it sounds like you're suggesting-- that's basically the same as teaching them that life will always give them everything they need to be happy, they are the boss, and if they're not happy, then it's someone else's (namely your) fault. You're not teaching them anything by trying to cater to their level... you're supposed to be bringing them up to YOUR level.
Your job is to teach the students how to be more organized, to respect and support each other, to respect and support you, and basically how to behave like decent human beings. This is how learning happens... through respect, discipline and organization. If you yourself are not like this, then you really can't teach anyone anything.
I've actually met children in grade 3 elementary school (usually girls) who are more mature than some of the ESL teachers I've run into... and I wish I were kidding. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
| shifty wrote: |
In an EFL classroom there has to be constant change of focus to retain the students' attention.
If the teacher fails to make the effort to bring this about then the alternative becomes a disruptive class which is even more tiring. |
See, this is something that I fully disagree with.
It's not your job to keep them entertained, which is what it sounds like you're suggesting-- that's basically the same as teaching them that life will always give them everything they need to be happy, they are the boss, and if they're not happy, then it's someone else's (namely your) fault. You're not teaching them anything by trying to cater to their level... you're supposed to be bringing them up to YOUR level.
Your job is to teach the students how to be more organized, to respect and support each other, to respect and support you, and basically how to behave like decent human beings. This is how learning happens... through respect, discipline and organization. If you yourself are not like this, then you really can't teach anyone anything.
I've actually met children in grade 3 elementary school (usually girls) who are more mature than some of the ESL teachers I've run into... and I wish I were kidding. |
Milk, I sure admire your idealism.
But on the whole I disagree with you. What you're talking about belongs to a classroom in your home country.
In EFL our responsibility is to engender a love for English. We have to get the students to a pitch we they WANT to learn English. By dint of our looks, style, whatever turns them on. The Korean teachers must do the spadework and the nuts and bolts of English. We are purely facilitators.
We do attitude. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:14 am Post subject: Re: What I've noticed about ESL in Korea |
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| tanklor1 wrote: |
A real teacher is more than being able to speak in front of a group of kids for a period and be about their way. Most of us here are not real teachers and have no idea about what a real teacher goes through.
If the majority of people teaching here had to go through all of the trials of a real teacher they wouldn't be here.
Plain and simple. |
'EFL teacher' is a misnomer. We aren't teachers, we don't want to be and generally our English is 'so so'. Still and all, I'd like to see a REAL teacher contentedly do back to back hakwon jobs without getting the mutters.
REAL teachers do extra murals, put up with pain in ass parents, work Saturday sports, perennial bad pay, in public eye or quick jaunt to town expected to don robe of office, high upfront qualification cost with boring education diplomas.... it's damn endless. You right, I wouldn't do it.
But they chose that life quite deliberately, didn't they? And often in bid to seek perpetual job security. Not EFL material, broadly speaking.
Those endless vacs they get; bunch of softies seeking the easy life. |
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austrian123
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:54 am Post subject: Re: What I've noticed about ESL in Korea |
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| tanklor1 wrote: |
| austrian123 wrote: |
1. The market is not as bad as many on Dave's proclaim. I easily found employment as a TOEFL teacher and as a regular esl teacher at two different hagwons. At my TOEFL hagwon I feel like a legitmate teacher....however at my other hagwon teaching esl is joke. I can't believe I get paid for what I do there.
2. The wordwide recession seems to have improved the quality of foreign esl teachers in Korea. I mean I've heard about the many stereotypes of esl teachers being unemployable back home, being dateless etc. But it seems the recession has brought in droves of foreigners who have the skills to be employed at home, but the market being so bad it seems that desperation has been the main cause of the influx of foreigners into Korea recently.
3. I can't believe the b*tching, moaning, whining and the complaints I hear from foreigners about teaching in Korea. What I don't understand is if these people want to complain so much...why stay? |
I say "Cliche" and leave it at that. You don't feel like a teacher; you either are or you aren't. Most of us aren't and the Korean side's expectations are leveled as such.
Low expectations mirror low stress jobs; low-stress jobs lead to fantasies of entitlement which leads to whining.
A real teacher is more than being able to speak in front of a group of kids for a period and be about their way. Most of us here are not real teachers and have no idea about what a real teacher goes through.
If the majority of people teaching here had to go through all of the trials of a real teacher they wouldn't be here.
Plain and simple. |
You're absolutely right. I admire you for the way you've been able to express your thoughts as your post was quite eloquent.
It's a disgrace how most esl teachers try to pass themselves off as real teachers when they don't even have a clue as to what real teachers go through. This of course excludes the minority of real certified teachers who went to teachers college and have a solid number of teaching years behind them prior to coming to Korea.
It all comes down to pride I guess.....working in the esl industry many try to convince themselves that working as esl teachers is legitmate teaching work to compensate for their own personal shortcomings.
They construe it as a personal attack and blindly fight back without even realizing how ridiculous they sound.
And when asked why they came to Korea to teach English you receive all sorts of ludicrous answers such as:
1) I came to Korea because I wanted to travel!
My response: Really? If you really wanted to travel why did you come to Korea? The truth of the matter is when most people think of Asia, Korea doesn't exactly come to mind. Most people think of Japan and China first.
Also, the very definition of travel means wanting spend time leisurely without having to work. When was the last time one had to work while traveling. Sounds more like you came to Korea not travel, but more Like you needed find a find a job and let's face it, it's easier to date Korean girls than girls in your home country.
2) I came to Korea because I enjoy working with children!
My response: Well if you enjoy working with children, why not work with children in your home country? Again, its easier to make money working with children in Korea and scoring with Korean women while doing it right?
Last edited by austrian123 on Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:14 am; edited 4 times in total |
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austrian123
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
| shifty wrote: |
In an EFL classroom there has to be constant change of focus to retain the students' attention.
If the teacher fails to make the effort to bring this about then the alternative becomes a disruptive class which is even more tiring. |
See, this is something that I fully disagree with.
It's not your job to keep them entertained, which is what it sounds like you're suggesting-- that's basically the same as teaching them that life will always give them everything they need to be happy, they are the boss, and if they're not happy, then it's someone else's (namely your) fault. You're not teaching them anything by trying to cater to their level... you're supposed to be bringing them up to YOUR level.
Your job is to teach the students how to be more organized, to respect and support each other, to respect and support you, and basically how to behave like decent human beings. This is how learning happens... through respect, discipline and organization. If you yourself are not like this, then you really can't teach anyone anything.
I've actually met children in grade 3 elementary school (usually girls) who are more mature than some of the ESL teachers I've run into... and I wish I were kidding. |
I concur. You're a very smart guy...I respect you. |
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