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winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
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 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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This thread is turning interesting. @ Wishfulthinking.
I agree with you but your logic by the examples you used only seems like it will apply for more than a very simple sentence. Or sentences that imply a certain degree of references to other issues.
The question I asked was purely an A -> B thing, not a A -> B thing that implies peripheral variables like C & D |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
The doorbell rings and someone says 'that would be them at the door."?
Are you sure? I can't imagine anyone saying that.
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no, i'm not sure to be honest. that's why i was seeing if anyone knew. i personally would say "that would be them at the door" to a friend if i was expecting other friends, but i do seem to have different ideas about the english language than others here.
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Are you a teacher? If so, imagine an adult intermediate student, whose first language you don't know, just asked you what the difference between 'Can I win' and 'will I win' is. Very simply, just like the OP requested, how would you explain it? |
i did a stint as a teacher for a few months but now am no longer one. i agree with the complexity of this conversation, but if i had to explain it to that age level i'd still probably do it something akin to my first post.
as for the person who thought it was clever to say that i think i'm more credible than a dictionary your remark was a bit off base. i've already stated that this is just my take on the two words, as it makes much more sense (to me) than the generally accepted definitions. i am not an authority and was just giving an obviously controversial view on the matter at hand.
as for more concrete evidence, i have none besides the examples i've given. again, this is just my take and while i could go quite in-depth and write a thorough discourse on the subject i don't know if anyone is really that interested.  |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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I wouldn't agree with this. "will" has nothing to do with how a sentence will sound or with the degree of definition required.
Can = boolean. yes or no. I can, or I cannot. the reason is unimportant or unrequested.
Will = incorporates desire or motivation, often unspoken or unwritten.
written: I like dan, but i will punch him in the face for five dollars.
unwritten: I like dan, but i will punch him in the face. (motivation or desire unknown) |
Really, you would explain the difference between 'will' and 'can' to an intermediate student like this? Probably just as well you got out of teaching. No offence.  |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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you can teach someone something difficult if done correctly. people often have more potential, even at a young age than one would think. it's all about the execution.
i know i'm not the best teacher that my school had ever seen, but they sure as hell were sad to see me go, and not to pat myself on the shoulder, but i bet they were hard-pressed to find someone who was as effective as myself.
anyways, i'm not here to toot my own horn.
the reason i left has absolutely nothing to do with the caliber of teacher i was from either my viewpoint or the schools. life just presented a much better opportunity and getting paid so little for 10 hour days in the evening didn't do much for my will to stay. |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| while i understand the reasoning behind why encarta and other sources define can and will the way they do, i still don't agree with it. maybe it's my own method of thinking. |
And frankly they would be wrong. you've shown a total lacking of basic language comprehension.
| Quote: |
| my definition was that the usage of the word "can" is only seeking a yes or no response, so we're fundamentally saying the same thing, although as my second post pointed out i don't think ability has anything to do with the usage of the word and i was cautious to point it out. |
No, you're really not because you're somehow taking the answer of "Yes/no" completely out of context and devoid of meaning.
The yes/no answer is specifically addressing your ability in relation to the question. You may not specifically spell out what gives or denies you the ability but ultimately yes/no in answer to a "can" question is all about ability. This is so fundamental that I can't imagine anyone with such an obvious misunderstanding of the subject ever making it through secondary school.
| Quote: |
| .though it would be nice to see some references as to how you come about �disagreeing� with the views also presented in this thread. |
While you might not find these definitions in a textbook of any kind, I do believe there is something quite common on many college campuses that would explain how it is he arrived at these conclusions.
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| as for the person who thought it was clever to say that i think i'm more credible than a dictionary your remark was a bit off base. i've already stated that this is just my take on the two words, as it makes much more sense (to me) than the generally accepted definitions. i am not an authority and was just giving an obviously controversial view on the matter at hand. |
You were two posts in with a line forming around the block pointing out how far off base you were before you moved to the "it's just my opinion" stance.
Sure anyone can disagree with anything, but frankly you're nearly trying to argue black is white at this point and on the internet that only comes across as one thing... |
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Slowmotion
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:01 am Post subject: |
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Yeah it made me wonder if Wishful thinking learned English late, maybe in his teens or so. It's pretty shocking for a native English teacher to not feel or recognize the meanings in can/will like everyone else.
On another note it's also made me personally wonder how many times I've heard some type of grammatical pattern/word in Korean and missed out on the subtle difference in meanings by simplifying it too much in my mind. |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:15 am Post subject: |
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i'm not a native english teacher (at least not anymore). and i most certainly didn't learn english any later than anyone else who speaks it natively.
and crossmr, not sure what got into your pants today, but you should calm down. indirectly attacking someone who has a different view than you won't really get you anywhere and because you believe that ability in inherent to the word "can" doesn't really give you the right to be a dick.
i thought we were having a civil discussion. anywho, this thread seems to have taken on a sour note and run its course. hats off crossmr.
edit: I apologize if anyone really thought that any of my responses were anything more than my opinion but if you got confused you should really practice the internets. many of you are seasoned pros and should already know this, especially with the usage of words like "disagree" and "opinion". |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
i'm not a native english teacher (at least not anymore). and i most certainly didn't learn english any later than anyone else who speaks it natively.
and crossmr, not sure what got into your pants today, but you should calm down. indirectly attacking someone who has a different view than you won't really get you anywhere and because you believe that ability in inherent to the word "can" doesn't really give you the right to be a dick.
i thought we were having a civil discussion. anywho, this thread seems to have taken on a sour note and run its course. hats off crossmr.
edit: I apologize if anyone really thought that any of my responses were anything more than my opinion but if you got confused you should really practice the internets. many of you are seasoned pros and should already know this, especially with the usage of words like "disagree" and "opinion". |
I'm perfectly calm.
Just because someone calls you out doesn't mean they're upset.
I'm sorry, but there is very little way to sugarcoat it. You might as well be trying to argue that bricks are soft or that if you flapped your arms real hard you could fly off the roof, because both of those things have as much foundation in reality as what you're trying to claim. Trying to pass this off as a "differing view" belies what it is you're actually saying.
You twice asserted a contrarian viewpoint with no evidence that runs counter to basically any accepted definition of, or understanding of, two very simple words and their usage in the English language. In neither of your first two posts did you bother to acknowledge that you were aware that what you were saying was not an accepted description of those words or their meaning you instead made what looked like factual assertions about the words such as ""can" is a boolean function, it itself has absolutely nothing to do with ability.". Only on your third post did you bother to acknowledge that you were just talking out of your backside.
| Quote: |
| I apologize if anyone really thought that any of my responses were anything more than my opinion but if you got confused you should really practice the internets. many of you are seasoned pros and should already know this, especially with the usage of words like "disagree" and "opinion". |
Nowhere in your posts (until now) did you use the word "opinion". I, on the other hand, have used it twice. You did say "maybe it's my own method of thinking." which, with the inclusion of the word "maybe", doesn't even indicate that you understand how far out of touch with reality you are.
Now, you did go to use the word disagree, so you were half right, but you again followed that up with definitive unsourced assertions that looked nothing like opinion. It's one thing to take a contrarian viewpoint, it's another to take one that is both completely unreasonable and one that is wholly unsupported.
So thank you for your advice, but I can use "the internets" just fine, but let me give you a little advice: learn2english |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| I was always taught by my parents (and others) to avoid using 'can' in a question unless you're asking about your (or someone else's) ability to do something. "Can I go to the bathroom?" "I don't know. Can you?". It seems pretty straight forward to me. |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:01 am Post subject: |
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crossmr,
if i asked you the question:
"can a perfect circle be anything but a perfect circle?"
are you going to really try and decide if it has the ability be so? the question states what it is and if you attempt to try and figure out if it has the ability to be anything but for your response, then i do believe you've wasted some time. the answer here is simply "no". it does not have the ability to be anything but a perfect circle, therefor ability is a non-factor and should not be a part of the equation to formulate a response.
i know this is a very extreme form of what i was originally trying to suggest, but it also is a good example of it.
i don't want to have a pissing match with anyone on this board, yourself included. i'm a very easy going person who particularly doesn't enjoy arguements. i just wanted to share my opinion, so i apologize to you that i didn't preface everything i typed with the fact that it was in fact an opinion even though it was from the beginning, or tacked on a disclaimer that what i was typing wasn't deep-rooted in unarguable factuality.
so please, let's bury the hatchet and for the love of zeus stop personally attacking me based on what you think you know about me and my opinions. |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
if i asked you the question:
"can a perfect circle be anything but a perfect circle?"
are you going to really try and decide if it has the ability be so? the question states what it is and if you attempt to try and figure out if it has the ability to be anything but for your response, then i do believe you've wasted some time. the answer here is simply "no". it does not have the ability to be anything but a perfect circle, therefor ability is a non-factor and should not be a part of the equation to formulate a response.
i know this is a very extreme form of what i was originally trying to suggest, but it also is a good example of it. |
Not at all. It's a terrible example, because it's still talking about ability. The yes/no answer is an answer of ability. It may not spell out what that ability but it is still an ability. The time it takes you to formulate the answer, think about it, even if it's obvious, is irrelevant to whether or not the question is asking about ability.
"Can an armless man clap his hands?" is still asking about ability, even if it's clear the ability exists or doesn't exist. Now, you'd be foolish to ask that question, but the basis of the question is still ability.
| Quote: |
| i don't want to have a pissing match with anyone on this board, yourself included. i'm a very easy going person who particularly doesn't enjoy arguements. i just wanted to share my opinion, so i apologize to you that i didn't preface everything i typed with the fact that it was in fact an opinion even though it was from the beginning, or tacked on a disclaimer that what i was typing wasn't deep-rooted in unarguable factuality. |
You come to a thread carrying on about a theory that runs contrary to what any authority on the subject says and you don't want to get into a pissing match and you don't enjoy arguments? Wow.. |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:26 am Post subject: |
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okay big man. i'm not going to argue with an authority of the subject anymore and i concede. you win.
i hope you have more people to cyber-bully because i'm throwing in the towel on this topic. |
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oldtrafford
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| So, another post that couldn't be discussed rationally. Like a class full of kindy kids!! God help your students!! |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
okay big man. i'm not going to argue with an authority of the subject anymore and i concede. you win.
i hope you have more people to cyber-bully because i'm throwing in the towel on this topic. |
�wishfullthinkng�it did appear as though you were coming out swinging with your first couple of posts�and some of the posters you were swinging at are pretty heavy hitters in the grammar ring � hence the aggressive attitude that unfortunately developed in this thread.
It was quite interesting trying to figure out where you were going to go with all this.
You have now made yourself quite clear�and hats off to you for your apology.
Not often do people take the time (or have the courage) to do that�they usually just disappear from the thread.
� cheers � and have a great weekend. |
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ytide
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| 'Can' and 'will' have many different functions such as asking for permission, requests as in 'can you do the dishes?' |
Good point.
"Can I win the next game?" could be a small child speaking. Asking the opponent to let them win. (less polite but more typical for this desired meaning would be: "Let me win the next game! You always win!!")
Implicit meaning also depends what word the stress is on. Consider the difference:
Can I win the next game?
Can I win the next game?
Can I win the next game?
Can I win the next game? |
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