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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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 Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| 5)Trafficking in Heroin and Meth to me is tantamount to murder. Mass murder. |
Except that it isn't. At all. Not by any possible definition of murder.
The US government making it illegal (to keep prices high as with alcohol in the Prohibition era, and for an excuse to massively ratchet up the police state), while at the same time being the largest trafficker (and/or enabler) in the world is quite evil though. |
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Space Bar
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Space Bar wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
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Except that it would not be Constitutional. You cannot execute someone who has not taken a life himself (except for maybe treason, right, Kuros?)
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Where does it say that in our Constitution? |
As Kuros shows above, it is unconstitutional because that is how courts have interpreted the Constitution over the decades, even though it may not be specifically spelled out there. |
1) That was with the specific crime of rape in times of stability (not marial law). ) That was for civilians 3)Tha isn't Constitutional, that is the current law of the land based off a Supreme Court ruling, something that is very different because 4)That ruling can be overturned. 5)Trafficking in Heroin and Meth to me is tantamount to murder. Mass murder.
You made a fair point, but you used the wrong term. |
That case was just one example where the court has held that. There are others. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| 5)Trafficking in Heroin and Meth to me is tantamount to murder. Mass murder. |
Except that it isn't. At all. Not by any possible definition of murder.
The US government making it illegal (to keep prices high as with alcohol in the Prohibition era, and for an excuse to massively ratchet up the police state), while at the same time being the largest trafficker (and/or enabler) in the world is quite evil though. |
Have you ever been inside a dope house? I once had to drag one of my employees from one in a crappy Detroit neighborhood because he got stranded there.
If you've actively dealt with junkies on a daily basis you know what a horrible thing drugs like that are. Look, I'm down with legalizing pot and all the conspiracy theories about why its illegal, but anyone who treats heroin and meth as the same as pot and spews out the same theories is just naive to what the drug does.
It absolutely destroys lives. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| 5)Trafficking in Heroin and Meth to me is tantamount to murder. Mass murder. |
Except that it isn't. At all. Not by any possible definition of murder.
The US government making it illegal (to keep prices high as with alcohol in the Prohibition era, and for an excuse to massively ratchet up the police state), while at the same time being the largest trafficker (and/or enabler) in the world is quite evil though. |
Have you ever been inside a dope house? I once had to drag one of my employees from one in a crappy Detroit neighborhood because he got stranded there. |
I've pretty much seen it all. I've lived in Bangkok for years, 'nuff said.
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| but anyone who treats heroin and meth as the same as pot and spews out the same theories is just naive to what the drug does. |
Whatever. You can appeal to emotion all you want, but at the end of the day nobody puts a gun to anyone's head and forces them to start using meth (or to continue using it). It is a personal choice, full stop. Your use of the word "murder" was totally absurd.
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| It absolutely destroys lives. |
Yeah well, they do it to themselves. Lamentable, but certainly not to be blamed on the people selling it. It should be decriminalized at any rate, as it would demystify these drugs and also get rid of the petty crime associated with it. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Space Bar wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
Except that it would not be Constitutional. You cannot execute someone who has not taken a life himself (except for maybe treason, right, Kuros?)
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Where does it say that in our Constitution? |
As Kuros shows above, it is unconstitutional because that is how courts have interpreted the Constitution over the decades, even though it may not be specifically spelled out there. |
1) That was with the specific crime of rape in times of stability (not marial law). ) That was for civilians 3)Tha isn't Constitutional, that is the current law of the land based off a Supreme Court ruling, something that is very different because 4)That ruling can be overturned. 5)Trafficking in Heroin and Meth to me is tantamount to murder. Mass murder.
You made a fair point, but you used the wrong term. |
What wrong term did he use? He called it unconstitutional. The Supreme Court interprets the Constitution. Thus, it has ruled that executions for crimes other than those resulting in death (with the exception that Spacebar provided) are unconstitutional.
Spacebar was right on the money. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Space Bar wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
Except that it would not be Constitutional. You cannot execute someone who has not taken a life himself (except for maybe treason, right, Kuros?)
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Where does it say that in our Constitution? |
As Kuros shows above, it is unconstitutional because that is how courts have interpreted the Constitution over the decades, even though it may not be specifically spelled out there. |
1) That was with the specific crime of rape in times of stability (not marial law). ) That was for civilians 3)Tha isn't Constitutional, that is the current law of the land based off a Supreme Court ruling, something that is very different because 4)That ruling can be overturned. 5)Trafficking in Heroin and Meth to me is tantamount to murder. Mass murder.
You made a fair point, but you used the wrong term. |
What wrong term did he use? He called it unconstitutional. The Supreme Court interprets the Constitution. Thus, it has ruled that executions for crimes other than those resulting in death (with the exception that Spacebar provided) are unconstitutional.
Spacebar was right on the money. |
I also mentioned that the death penalty uses (aside from meth and heroin trafficking) were for situations of extreme civil unrest and in war.
In such cases you have martial law or fall under military law.
Add on the fact that the Constitution is a "living document" and you can always change the law if the social situation changes.
If rioters are engaged in rapine and pillaging I have no problem with the police putting them down.
And this will really get Space Bar's blood boiling but I'd also like to add rape of a child to the list of "String em up. And yesterday" offenses.
| Quote: |
| Whatever. You can appeal to emotion all you want, but at the end of the day nobody puts a gun to anyone's head and forces them to start using meth (or to continue using it). It is a personal choice, full stop. Your use of the word "murder" was totally absurd. |
Drugs addiction involving those drugs absolutely destroys lives.
Again, since painkillers and legitimate uses exist for both drugs, the in practice death penalty application for such drugs would be impossible, so this is theoretical, but in this part of the war on drugs, I think the answer is to go Sherman on it. Now with pot, acid, shrooms, coke, and plenty of others the answer is "Don't go to war in the first place".
Heroin and especially meth addiction causes people to really start to break down. No, consumption of those should not be legal. And if you supply that well then, meh, why not the firing squad? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I also mentioned that the death penalty uses (aside from meth and heroin trafficking) were for situations of extreme civil unrest and in war.
In such cases you have martial law or fall under military law. |
I don't know how the 8th Amendment impacts those cases. Hopefully, circumstances in the near future won't permit such controversies, and we won't find out.
| Steelrails wrote: |
Add on the fact that the Constitution is a "living document" and you can always change the law if the social situation changes. |
Yes, but understand that Space Bar was totally correct in calling the death penalty unconstitutional when applied to rape . . .
| Steelrails wrote: |
And this will really get Space Bar's blood boiling but I'd also like to add rape of a child to the list of "String em up. And yesterday" offenses. |
. . . and even the rape of a child.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Heroin and especially meth addiction causes people to really start to break down. No, consumption of those should not be legal. And if you supply that well then, meh, why not the firing squad? |
I don't know, man. When you start getting even more aggressive than an eye for an eye, there's a good chance you've reached a cruel, unusual, or excessive punishment. The heroin and meth dealers, AFAIK, are one step removed from the deaths of their consumers. That step is the agency of the addicts themselves. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| . . . and even the rape of a child. |
A 5-4 decision. Yes its the law of the land, but that can be changed. I flat out think they are wrong.
Fair enough on Space Bar's constitutional. I take that the view that if it is not explicitly spelled out in the Constitution, then it is more "the law of the land", but you're right.
Regardless we used to have times when child rapists could be hung and if we have any luck, those days will be back.
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| I don't know, man. When you start getting even more aggressive than an eye for an eye, there's a good chance you've reached a cruel, unusual, or excessive punishment. The heroin and meth dealers, AFAIK, are one step removed from the deaths of their consumers. That step is the agency of the addicts themselves. |
I agree with the liberal view that for addicts treatment rather than incarceration is the answer. Even small scale dealing shouldn't be be cause for severe punishment. But if you are someone dealing in serious weight.....Especially if you're a non-addict.
But again this only theoretical because such a law in a large country would be completely unworkable. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| Whatever. You can appeal to emotion all you want, but at the end of the day nobody puts a gun to anyone's head and forces them to start using meth (or to continue using it). It is a personal choice, full stop. Your use of the word "murder" was totally absurd. |
Drugs addiction involving those drugs absolutely destroys lives.
Again, since painkillers and legitimate uses exist for both drugs, the in practice death penalty application for such drugs would be impossible, so this is theoretical, but in this part of the war on drugs, I think the answer is to go Sherman on it. Now with pot, acid, shrooms, coke, and plenty of others the answer is "Don't go to war in the first place". |
Did you just mention the "war the on drugs"? Are you that naive? Do you not realize that the US government is pretty much the largest drug trafficker around? They've been caught red handed many times. And you want to give them even more power?
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| Heroin and especially meth addiction causes people to really start to break down. No, consumption of those should not be legal. And if you supply that well then, meh, why not the firing squad? |
Because this is the stupidest argument ever. It makes no sense. You think it's up to you what people should or shouldn't be allowed to do?? If someone wants to become a junkie, then that's a personal choice. As long as he/she doesn't hurt anyone else, then it's nobody else's business. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Did you just mention the "war the on drugs"? Are you that naive? Do you not realize that the US government is pretty much the largest drug trafficker around? They've been caught red handed many times. And you want to give them even more power? |
Oh I know and agree with much of it from Hearst and Anslinger on down.
But it isn't just the US government. It is gangs as well (though they often just do as the government does).
I think making heroin and meth distribution, dealing, and consumption illegal is fine. I think that people who do that are pretty nasty and should have the law go after them.
You are free to disagree.
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| Because this is the stupidest argument ever. It makes no sense. You think it's up to you what people should or shouldn't be allowed to do?? If someone wants to become a junkie, then that's a personal choice. As long as he/she doesn't hurt anyone else, then it's nobody else's business. |
To some extent, yes. If people want a dry county that's fine. I do think these kinds of illegalities should not be at the Federal or even state level. I think if a city wants to make drugs like these illegal and have stiff penalties, fine. I think at the city level is a fine place to balance various freedoms and risks involved with intoxicants. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| I do think these kinds of illegalities should not be at the Federal or even state level. I think if a city wants to make drugs like these illegal and have stiff penalties, fine. I think at the city level is a fine place to balance various freedoms and risks involved with intoxicants. |
This is reasonable I suppose. I still don't think the death penalty could ever apply though.
Regardless, the key is taking the power away from the Feds and the drug cartels they do business with. Decriminalization is the most straightforward way to do this. The entire business model is based on creating a monopoly through making the drugs illegal, and the black market prices shoot way up, which in turn allows the dealers to expand their power. Some of them make so much money they can afford their own private armies. The CIA also uses the drug trade to fund most of their elicit activities around the world (no big secret there). It's the exact same principle that made the mob so powerful during Prohibition. None of this would any longer be possible with decriminalization.
If some meth-heads still want to cook up some cheap chemical crud in a bathtub somewhere and smoke themselves into oblivion then so be it... Better than having them go prostitute themselves or steal etc. to get money to buy it from some gangsters. |
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Space Bar
Joined: 20 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| And this will really get Space Bar's blood boiling but I'd also like to add rape of a child to the list of "String em up. And yesterday" offenses. |
No worries, SR. When you are sitting on death row falsely convicted of child rape, I will still fight to save your life. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| Space Bar wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| And this will really get Space Bar's blood boiling but I'd also like to add rape of a child to the list of "String em up. And yesterday" offenses. |
No worries, SR. When you are sitting on death row falsely convicted of child rape, I will still fight to save your life. |
The question of whether someone is innocent and what punishment fits the crime are two separate issues. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Space Bar wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| And this will really get Space Bar's blood boiling but I'd also like to add rape of a child to the list of "String em up. And yesterday" offenses. |
No worries, SR. When you are sitting on death row falsely convicted of child rape, I will still fight to save your life. |
The question of whether someone is innocent and what punishment fits the crime are two separate issues. |
Perhaps normally. But the irrevocability of the punishment of death should make error a concern. |
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