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First gay caveman found
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Joined: 20 Oct 2010

PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:57 pm    Post subject: First gay caveman found Reply with quote

He musta been lonely!

Sunday 10 April 2011

First homosexual caveman found

Archaeologists have unearthed the 5,000-year-old remains of what they believe may have been the world's oldest known gay caveman.

The male body � said to date back to between 2900-2500BC � was discovered buried in a way normally reserved only for women of the Corded Ware culture in the Copper Age.

The skeleton was found in a Prague suburb in the Czech Republic with its head pointing eastwards and surrounded by domestic jugs, rituals only previously seen in female graves.

"From history and ethnology, we know that people from this period took funeral rites very seriously so it is highly unlikely that this positioning was a mistake," said lead archaeologist Kamila Remisova Vesinova.

"Far more likely is that he was a man with a different sexual orientation, homosexual or transsexual," she added.

According to Corded Ware culture which began in the late Stone Age and culminated in the Bronze Age, men were traditionally buried lying on their right side with their heads pointing towards the west, and women on their left sides with their heads pointing towards the east. Both sexes would be put into a crouching position.

The men would be buried alongside weapons, hammers and flint knives as well as several portions of food and drink to accompany them to the other side.

Women would be buried with necklaces made from teeth, pets, and copper earrings, as well as jugs and an egg-shaped pot placed near the feet.

"What we see here doesn't add up to traditional Corded Ware cultural norms. The grave in Terronska Street in Prague 6 is interred on its left side with the head facing the West. An oval, egg-shaped container usually associated with female burials was also found at the feet of the skeleton. None of the objects that usually accompany male burials � such as weapons, stone battle axes and flint knives � were found in the grave.

"We believe this is one of the earliest cases of what could be described as a 'transsexual' or 'third gender grave' in the Czech Republic," archaeologist Katerina Semradova told a press conference on Tuesday.

She said that archeologists had uncovered an earlier case dating from the Mesolithic period where a female warrior was buried as a man.

She added that Siberian shamans, or latter-day witch doctors, were also buried in this way but with richer funeral accessories to appropriate to their elevated position in society.

"But this later discovery was neither of those, leading us to believe the man was probably homosexual or transsexual," Semeradova said.

The Corded Ware culture takes its name from the frequent use of decorative cord impressions found its pots and covered much of North, Central and Eastern Europe.

It is also known as a single-grave and battle axe culture due to separate burials and the Mena's habit of being buried with stone axes.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did the find any signs of Lps of showtunes in the burial sight?
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*holy man whose grave was vandalized

*captured or otherwise disgraced male whose shame was to be extended to the afterlife

*hermaphrodite

*male who, through choice or injury, did not able to contribute to the tribe through hunting or warfare

*it's actually female

All of those seem much more likely than an ancient tribe allowing an abberation to live peacefully alongside them.
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Space Bar



Joined: 20 Oct 2010

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

geldedgoat wrote:
*holy man whose grave was vandalized

*captured or otherwise disgraced male whose shame was to be extended to the afterlife

*hermaphrodite

*male who, through choice or injury, did not able to contribute to the tribe through hunting or warfare

*it's actually female

All of those seem much more likely than an ancient tribe allowing an abberation to live peacefully alongside them.

Wow, do you seriously put up your baseless suppositions against the reasoned conclusions of a scholar in the field?

What there is no evidence for is that the Menas made the same value judgments as geldedgoat.

FWIW, hermaphroditism is a much greater aberration than homosexuality, so by your logic should have been even more ostracized. And male and female skeletons are fairly easily differentiated.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am going to go with gelded goat on this one. there is no proof offered. yes if the person died after a certain age there can be difficulties in establishing sex. Also what condition were the remains in.
But the rituals are interesting. There are other ways to interpret this and that this is a holy man would be one of them.
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Koveras



Joined: 09 Oct 2008

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I�ve heard that in some primitive cultures a penchant for men over women doesn�t define �orientation�, but whether one takes on the active or passive role in the sex act, the active being manly, the passive effeminate. (Is that even true, or just post-modern historical revisionism?) Maybe this guy was a dedicated bottom? Geldedgoat�s ideas seem more likely.
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Underwaterbob



Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How does this scholar know enough about this "Corded Ware" culture to definitively conclude that a man whose funeral was that of a woman's means he was homosexual? Like geldedgoat pointed out, there could be any number of alternative explanations for the discrepancy.
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Space Bar wrote:
Wow, do you seriously put up your baseless suppositions against the reasoned conclusions of a scholar in the field?


They're not baseless suppositions; they're suppositions based on the available evidence. This burial shares characteristics of both women and holy men, but is lacking key elements of both. None of the jewelry normally associated with women nor the "richer funeral accessories" associated with holy men were reported as being found. Why then do they assume this burial follows the former and not the latter?

Seriously, if they're holding back on juicy info like wooden butt-plugs, assless chaps, or, I don't know, artwork depicting homosexual or transsexual behavior that led them to this conclusion, then they're in desparate need of a lesson on publicity. Absent that, this just comes off looking like a sad attempt at agenda pushing; really, 'homosexual/transsexual caveman' should have been at the bottom of their list of possible explanations.

Quote:
What there is no evidence for is that the Menas made the same value judgments as geldedgoat.


Oh stop it. You know very well I made no value judgments. 'Aberration' just means homosexuals and transsexuals would be unusual, atypical, not the norm. Seeing as how this has never before been found, I see no reason why describing it as aberrant in these cultures would be inappropriate.

Quote:
FWIW, hermaphroditism is a much greater aberration than homosexuality, so by your logic should have been even more ostracized.


Throughout history, behavioral deviancy (especially that of a sexual nature) has normally either been embraced (making it fairly widespread) or violently discriminated against. However, it was not uncommon for physical deformities, especially those likes hermaphrodism, to lead to veneration. *edit*: Or maybe it was just a 'passable' hermie.

Quote:
And male and female skeletons are fairly easily differentiated.


Not when they're over 4,000 years old.
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Space Bar



Joined: 20 Oct 2010

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also have trouble with describing the sexual behavior of an individual from over 4,000 years ago as "gay," but I guess I just don't get why you would doubt what would seem to be the most likely scenario: that the individual was homosexual/transgendered. I mean, why is that at the bottom of your list of possibilities?
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Space Bar wrote:
I mean, why is that at the bottom of your list of possibilities?


Pretty much because of everything I wrote above. "A wizard did it" is almost a more likely explanation for the burial.

*edit*: I suppose if the remains suggest that this individual suffered a violent death, it having aberrant sexual behavior would make much more sense. But, again, I see nothing like that having been reported in this or any other article on the topic.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There could have been other reasons for burying the individual is such a way. Cultural mores that we can never know about. Archeology is full of this. Trying to create cultural stories from stones and bones. Really shaky ground. The supposition that the burial was due to sexual orientation is a shot in the dark at explanation. But an interesting one at that. Since there would have been gay humans at that time, one would have to ask themselves how they were treated in life and death. Archeologist love to do this come up with an idea to start a controversy. It creates tension and gets people to thinking.
I was at a conference once and some professor stated that "tools"" from Olduvai gorge could have been made by otters not ancestors of humans this enraged another professor to the point he ripped the pocket protector off his shirt , threw it and charged the podium Nerds in combat unforgettable.
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Space Bar



Joined: 20 Oct 2010

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

geldedgoat wrote:
Space Bar wrote:
I mean, why is that at the bottom of your list of possibilities?


Pretty much because of everything I wrote above. "A wizard did it" is almost a more likely explanation for the burial.

*edit*: I suppose if the remains suggest that this individual suffered a violent death, it having aberrant sexual behavior would make much more sense. But, again, I see nothing like that having been reported in this or any other article on the topic.

Why do you assume that ancient cultures would have been violent towards sexual minorities? Where is the evidence for that? Indeed, there is evidence to the contrary.
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Space Bar wrote:
Why do you assume that ancient cultures would have been violent towards sexual minorities? Where is the evidence for that? Indeed, there is evidence to the contrary.


What evidence?
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Space Bar



Joined: 20 Oct 2010

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

geldedgoat wrote:
Space Bar wrote:
Why do you assume that ancient cultures would have been violent towards sexual minorities? Where is the evidence for that? Indeed, there is evidence to the contrary.


What evidence?

Well, for starters, the obvious ones are the cultures of ancient Greece and Rome in which homosexuality in its institutionalized pederastic form was freely accepted and practiced.
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Space Bar wrote:
Well, for starters, the obvious ones are the cultures of ancient Greece and Rome in which homosexuality in its institutionalized pederastic form was freely accepted and practiced.


That in no way detracts from what I've already said: Throughout history, behavioral deviancy (especially that of a sexual nature) has normally either been embraced (making it fairly widespread) or violently discriminated against. The Greeks and Romans do not apply here.
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