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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| IlIlNine wrote: |
This thread has, I believe, been done to death.
Here is one anecdote and a very simple question:
I am a caucasian. I work in a Korean company, I have a Korean girlfriend, I rarely even speak English anymore....
On a very basic level, yes, my life could potentially be recreated by any number of Koreans with no superficial differences.
Does that mean that I am culturally Korean?
Steelrails? |
To me? Yeah. Your life style fits with that of most of the Koreans around you. Some may argue that you're not 'fully Korean', but, meh, to me you're pretty darn close. You're obviously 'functionally Korean' to be able to opporate within this society at that level. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Menino80 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Heck, don't look at an eslcafe thread where its censored, look at a youtube comments page to see what people really think. Just as bad if not worse than any K-Netizen board. |
You just keep changing your arguments. Its laughable. You have proven time and again you cannot make an argument and follow it through. Instead just throw fifteen more arguments against the wall and try to flood the board with stream of consciousness barely coherent effluvium. |
WorldNetDaily ran articles lamenting James Watson's dismissal for suggesting that Africans have less intelligence as an explanation for their government's failure.
The Conservative sites throw article of article up that boasts about American Exceptionalism and how things that are American are uniquely better.
To say nothing of the Conservative sites that invoke religion as a source of authority in advocating policy. Take the Minutemen vs. The AES. Same kinda thing.
Or what, there is something sooooo different between those "Unique Korea" articles and the articles in major European papers that feel that people should be banned from wearing a certain style of fabric on their heads?
Last edited by Steelrails on Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cybermutiny
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Menino80 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Heck, don't look at an eslcafe thread where its censored, look at a youtube comments page to see what people really think. Just as bad if not worse than any K-Netizen board. |
You just keep changing your arguments. Its laughable. You have proven time and again you cannot make an argument and follow it through. Instead just throw fifteen more arguments against the wall and try to flood the board with stream of consciousness barely coherent effluvium. |
Yes, unfortunately this thread was hijacked long ago from its original purpose. The main point of my original post was to discuss interesting cultural differences (we can all agree some exist). |
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brento1138
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| cybermutiny wrote: |
| ... unfortunately this thread was hijacked long ago from its original purpose. The main point of my original post was to discuss interesting cultural differences (we can all agree some exist). |
I agree, this thread really has devolved. **Why is it that people feel the need to argue petty details about others posts... for showmanship and demonstrating some superior intellect? It just makes them look worse, IMO**
Anyways, I quite liked your original post and thought the name "The fish that judge you" would make a very interesting title for a book.
All Koreans are subject to this "judging" which I find quite different from the society I grew up in. It's ingrained into them through Confucian thought (shame) as well as ever-growing/emerging Christian/Catholic belief structures (guilt, superstition, repression). But you mentioned how your girlfriend told you this. Well, I do think that women are more harshly judged in this society than men. I can't remember where I read it, but there was a guy on this site complaining how his girlfriend wouldn't hold his hand in public in Korea, but would do so in his home country. She explained that in Korea, she feels uncomfortable doing so because people will look at her and judge her.
I've come across many examples of talking to Koreans, both in Canada and Korea, who seem to believe in what I call a "mental cage" which encases them. But the cage only seems to exist inside the physical borders of Korea, which you could even argue are Korean cultural borders. When I taught Koreans in Canada, the main thing they expressed was feeling a new sense of freedom (most of them were university students or recent grads). Not having to answer to their parents, being able to date "Western-style," going over to a friend's house, not being judged as different if with someone of another race... these were all very new and interesting things to them, things they seemed to enjoy. But once back in Korea, that life in Canada seemed a distant dream. Korea was a harsh reality again. Not because it is a bad place, economically disadvantaged, or dirty or ugly. It's because their mind has once again been put into the cage where it is not allowed to divert from a culturally established set of rules and regulations.
Unfortunately, Christianity and Catholicism is growing like mad here in Korea. Statistically, I know the numbers are climbing like crazy and now people of the Christian/Catholic faith outnumber all others. From a totally first-hand perspective, I've known Koreans (women mainly) convert to Christianity recently. It's disturbing, I think, because it puts Koreans more towards conservative beliefs (in an already ultra-conservative country), superstition, shame... The superstition and pseudo-scientific stuff is similar to what's happening in America. In Korea, slightly different beliefs abound like blood type defining personality, fans killing us in our sleep, absolute belief in the media, etc. I once knew a girl who found out a foreigner guy had B-blood type and he didn't ever hear from her again... *sigh*
When I first came to Korea, I thought it would get more liberal, slowly the mental cage would lift, and Koreans would become more "westernized." or should I say "modernized?" But the westernization is a picky one, only allowing certain western elements to seep into the mental cage... and twisting them to fit into that mental cage. Now, I better not say "westernization is the way" or that it is a superior thought system, but just from my experiences and from what I've seen, young Koreans yearn for this mental freedom and escape from "the fish who judge." It's a Korean meme that has roots here, it has spread and grown and exists everywhere here... How long will the mental cage be over Koreans? How long must they fear that everyone around them is constantly judging them? How long should they conform to beliefs that aren't real, or true, but which they believe in because everyone else seems to? How long will this country have the highest suicide rate in the developed world? I predict a slow death of this way of thinking as I often hear the "this is Korean culture" argument. Well, who am I to argue? It really is Korean culture... I suppose.
Yet some things do brighten up my view. The other day I heard young Koreans walking down my street singing "Itaewon freedom" together. A slight smile was on my face when I heard that. When I hear my Korean friends yearn about their days in America, or Canada... wishing they were still abroad and mentioning the "freedom" there. I keep telling them "Korea is free," and "you are free." But it doesn't get into their head. They believe they are not free, and it is that belief, that meme, which encases them in that mental cage for all others to look into and judge. I know there's still hope for this country, to enjoy life without worrying what others think about them, without shame, guilt, superstition...
The fish that judge you. Interesting, thought-provoking insight into Korea, OP... |
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hondaicivic
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Daegu, South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| brento1138 wrote: |
| cybermutiny wrote: |
| ... unfortunately this thread was hijacked long ago from its original purpose. The main point of my original post was to discuss interesting cultural differences (we can all agree some exist). |
I agree, this thread really has devolved. **Why is it that people feel the need to argue petty details about others posts... for showmanship and demonstrating some superior intellect? It just makes them look worse, IMO**
Anyways, I quite liked your original post and thought the name "The fish that judge you" would make a very interesting title for a book.
All Koreans are subject to this "judging" which I find quite different from the society I grew up in. It's ingrained into them through Confucian thought (shame) as well as ever-growing/emerging Christian/Catholic belief structures (guilt, superstition, repression). But you mentioned how your girlfriend told you this. Well, I do think that women are more harshly judged in this society than men. I can't remember where I read it, but there was a guy on this site complaining how his girlfriend wouldn't hold his hand in public in Korea, but would do so in his home country. She explained that in Korea, she feels uncomfortable doing so because people will look at her and judge her.
I've come across many examples of talking to Koreans, both in Canada and Korea, who seem to believe in what I call a "mental cage" which encases them. But the cage only seems to exist inside the physical borders of Korea, which you could even argue are Korean cultural borders. When I taught Koreans in Canada, the main thing they expressed was feeling a new sense of freedom (most of them were university students or recent grads). Not having to answer to their parents, being able to date "Western-style," going over to a friend's house, not being judged as different if with someone of another race... these were all very new and interesting things to them, things they seemed to enjoy. But once back in Korea, that life in Canada seemed a distant dream. Korea was a harsh reality again. Not because it is a bad place, economically disadvantaged, or dirty or ugly. It's because their mind has once again been put into the cage where it is not allowed to divert from a culturally established set of rules and regulations.
Unfortunately, Christianity and Catholicism is growing like mad here in Korea. Statistically, I know the numbers are climbing like crazy and now people of the Christian/Catholic faith outnumber all others. From a totally first-hand perspective, I've known Koreans (women mainly) convert to Christianity recently. It's disturbing, I think, because it puts Koreans more towards conservative beliefs (in an already ultra-conservative country), superstition, shame... The superstition and pseudo-scientific stuff is similar to what's happening in America. In Korea, slightly different beliefs abound like blood type defining personality, fans killing us in our sleep, absolute belief in the media, etc. I once knew a girl who found out a foreigner guy had B-blood type and he didn't ever hear from her again... *sigh*
When I first came to Korea, I thought it would get more liberal, slowly the mental cage would lift, and Koreans would become more "westernized." or should I say "modernized?" But the westernization is a picky one, only allowing certain western elements to seep into the mental cage... and twisting them to fit into that mental cage. Now, I better not say "westernization is the way" or that it is a superior thought system, but just from my experiences and from what I've seen, young Koreans yearn for this mental freedom and escape from "the fish who judge." It's a Korean meme that has roots here, it has spread and grown and exists everywhere here... How long will the mental cage be over Koreans? How long must they fear that everyone around them is constantly judging them? How long should they conform to beliefs that aren't real, or true, but which they believe in because everyone else seems to? How long will this country have the highest suicide rate in the developed world? I predict a slow death of this way of thinking as I often hear the "this is Korean culture" argument. Well, who am I to argue? It really is Korean culture... I suppose.
Yet some things do brighten up my view. The other day I heard young Koreans walking down my street singing "Itaewon freedom" together. A slight smile was on my face when I heard that. When I hear my Korean friends yearn about their days in America, or Canada... wishing they were still abroad and mentioning the "freedom" there. I keep telling them "Korea is free," and "you are free." But it doesn't get into their head. They believe they are not free, and it is that belief, that meme, which encases them in that mental cage for all others to look into and judge. I know there's still hope for this country, to enjoy life without worrying what others think about them, without shame, guilt, superstition...
The fish that judge you. Interesting, thought-provoking insight into Korea, OP... |
Thank god I'm from the US...... |
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Kaypea
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| I was also hearing people sing "Itaewon Freedom" in Itaewon. Maybe if you're a young person and you're in Itaewon and you don't sing it, people will judge you. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Unfortunately, Christianity and Catholicism is growing like mad here in Korea |
Catholics are Christians. I know Koreans seem to want to separate people in this way but that doesn't mean we in the West, who invented it, have to. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Unfortunately, Christianity and Catholicism is growing like mad here in Korea |
Catholics are Christians. I know Koreans seem to want to separate people in this way but that doesn't mean we in the West, who invented it, have to. |
Yeah never heard of anti-Catholic hatred and equating catholicisim with blasphemy in the West... 
That isn't just Koreans, its a lot of the Evangelical Right-Wingers in all Protestant Christian communities. |
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brento1138
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Unfortunately, Christianity and Catholicism is growing like mad here in Korea |
Catholics are Christians. I know Koreans seem to want to separate people in this way but that doesn't mean we in the West, who invented it, have to. |
I think that Korean Christianity and Korean Catholicism is what is actually being separated here, not actual Christianity or Catholicism. And as a non-Christian, non-religious person I totally agree with you 100% that Catholics ARE Christians. But talk to a Korean Christian and they will vehemently deny that Catholics are Christians. Talk to a western Christian, and they will eventually agree that Catholics are a sect of Christianity. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah never heard of anti-Catholic hatred and equating catholicisim with blasphemy in the West...
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Who said anything about hatred and blasphemy? I just said Koreans separate them. You're now inventing ways that people are criticising Koreans just to give y0u an excuse to trot out the old mantra about how bad the West is too. Again |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Look, I've been in Evangelical circles back home and there are plenty of people who don't regard Catholics as Christians, especially when they start belting out to Mary as an intercessory for prayer.
I consider Catholics Christians, but to suggest that this issue is settled in the West is a joke. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Ok, by the West I was talking about Europe. If some people are that crazy in the US that they don't see Catholicism as a Christian religion - they were the ones who started it after all - then I concede your point. but I was in no way accusing Koreans of anything bad. |
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happiness
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| i was talking with this retired missionary living here and I think alot of people join these churches to be part of a larger group. Maybe, they could meet husbands or make more friends? |
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brento1138
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| happiness wrote: |
| i was talking with this retired missionary living here and I think alot of people join these churches to be part of a larger group. Maybe, they could meet husbands or make more friends? |
As a non-religious person, I just have to share something I saw on the subway today. On the jam-packed green line this morning, there was a woman in her 40s reading an English book written by some reverend. I had to peek and see what was in the book she was reading, and honestly speaking, the stuff I saw I could recognize instantly as stuff I constantly hear repeating like a broken record from the mouths of Christians... in a whole two pages I quickly scanned, there was a simple message that was clear: submit yourself to God and only God, he is good and bad things are evil, and truth is all important. I mean, how many times do they need to read the same thing!?
When she was reading it, she was mouthing the words and almost speaking out... kind of whispering. It looked, honestly, insane to me. Then I started thinking a bit more. If an advanced alien race were watching us, they would think about us the same way we would think about mentally insane people living in an insane asylum. You know, the wide-eyed people who bang their heads against the wall, repeating the same things over and over again. That's how I felt when I viewed this woman. Like she was an ancient relic of our past, when superstition and ignorance ruled over the human race. But insanely enough, she still exists, along with most of the human race, in what we call "faith" or religion. It was a "wow" moment for me, just for a minute or so. Then I had to get on with my daily life and squeeze off the subway, heading to work.
As I walked to work, I thought that this kind of behavior somehow suits and fits into Korean culture almost perfectly. Groupthink, group actions, following a leader. Koreans love having a "God father figure" to look up to. South Korean society seems to lack it, and so Koreans look to God/Jesus for that now, whereas North Koreans have their Dear Leader. It's quite interesting. I think I'd like to investigate how Korean Christianity has thrived so well in Korea, when it has performed so dismally in other Asian countries, namely China (which has pretty much banned religion), Thailand, Japan. Catholicism did seem apparent in Vietnam (25% of the population I believe?) and it's everywhere in the Philippines. But I believe Christianity and Catholicism are going to really take off even more in Korea as it begins to become more of a norm. It truly suits the culture, in this society where some self-flogging sadness seems to be ingrained into the Korean national identity. Yepp, I think more Koreans will flock like sheep to the herd and we will see Christianity & Catholicism growing even more over the next few decades. |
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| brento1138 wrote: |
| happiness wrote: |
| i was talking with this retired missionary living here and I think alot of people join these churches to be part of a larger group. Maybe, they could meet husbands or make more friends? |
As a non-religious person, I just have to share something I saw on the subway today. On the jam-packed green line this morning, there was a woman in her 40s reading an English book written by some reverend. I had to peek and see what was in the book she was reading, and honestly speaking, the stuff I saw I could recognize instantly as stuff I constantly hear repeating like a broken record from the mouths of Christians... in a whole two pages I quickly scanned, there was a simple message that was clear: submit yourself to God and only God, he is good and bad things are evil, and truth is all important. I mean, how many times do they need to read the same thing!?
When she was reading it, she was mouthing the words and almost speaking out... kind of whispering. It looked, honestly, insane to me. Then I started thinking a bit more. If an advanced alien race were watching us, they would think about us the same way we would think about mentally insane people living in an insane asylum. You know, the wide-eyed people who bang their heads against the wall, repeating the same things over and over again. That's how I felt when I viewed this woman. Like she was an ancient relic of our past, when superstition and ignorance ruled over the human race. But insanely enough, she still exists, along with most of the human race, in what we call "faith" or religion. It was a "wow" moment for me, just for a minute or so. Then I had to get on with my daily life and squeeze off the subway, heading to work.
As I walked to work, I thought that this kind of behavior somehow suits and fits into Korean culture almost perfectly. Groupthink, group actions, following a leader. Koreans love having a "God father figure" to look up to. South Korean society seems to lack it, and so Koreans look to God/Jesus for that now, whereas North Koreans have their Dear Leader. It's quite interesting. I think I'd like to investigate how Korean Christianity has thrived so well in Korea, when it has performed so dismally in other Asian countries, namely China (which has pretty much banned religion), Thailand, Japan. Catholicism did seem apparent in Vietnam (25% of the population I believe?) and it's everywhere in the Philippines. But I believe Christianity and Catholicism are going to really take off even more in Korea as it begins to become more of a norm. It truly suits the culture, in this society where some self-flogging sadness seems to be ingrained into the Korean national identity. Yepp, I think more Koreans will flock like sheep to the herd and we will see Christianity & Catholicism growing even more over the next few decades. |
Good observations, I think you've nailed some points there. You also have to be aware that it is a movement that is being pushed very strongly by certain politicians and business leaders. Over 40% of Korean universities are Christian and require their students to attend chapel as a pre-requisite for graduation. In other words, this (the huge growth of Christinaity in Korea) is not a random event. |
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