Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Fox]

[geldedgoat]

[Fox]

[Steelrails]

I am an abused woman. I am verbally abused everyday. One day my husband says he is going to divorce me and I kill him.

Did I kill him because of the divorce or because of the years of abuse?

Given that killing someone is not a normal reaction to such an even, it stands reasonable to assume that the years of abuse played a significant factor.

I think this matters on whether you're a "big picture" or a "down to the finest details" type of person. A big picture person will find themselves drawn to slavery. A finest details type may find themselves drawn to States Right's.

[Kuros]

Opinions on these forums rarely move me to emotion, but I have to say, the open slavist-sympathizing disgusts me. And by Americans 150 years after the fact, no less. It is perplexing.

Yes, the Old South is more than just civilization predicated and economically dependent upon slavery and racial superiority. Yes, you can find good things about the South and examples of humanity and virtue even among slaveholders. But the Old South was certainly a society based on slavery, and so when Lincoln was elected, and the expansion of slavery was halted and its existence threatened, the South felt threatened.

This speculation about tariffs is just garbage. And yes, its contra-factual.

[visitorq]

[visitorq]

[visitorq]

[Kuros]

[visitorq]

[Kuros]

[visitorq]

[Ya-ta Boy]

Is secession legal? I bow to the superior wisdom of Lincoln as expressed in his First Inaugural:

"A disruption of the Federal Union, heretofore only menaced, is now formidably attempted.
��I hold that in contemplation of universal law and of the Constitution the Union of these States is perpetual. Perpetuity is implied, if not expressed, in the fundamental law of all national governments. It is safe to assert that no government proper ever had a provision in its organic law for its own termination. Continue to execute all the express provisions of our National Constitution, and the Union will endure forever, it being impossible to destroy it except by some action not provided for in the instrument itself.
��Again: If the United States be not a government proper, but an association of States in the nature of contract merely, can it, as a contract, be peaceably unmade by less than all the parties who made it? One party to a contract may violate it�break it, so to speak�but does it not require all to lawfully rescind it?
��Descending from these general principles, we find the proposition that in legal contemplation the Union is perpetual confirmed by the history of the Union itself. The Union is much older than the Constitution. It was formed, in fact, by the Articles of Association in 1774. It was matured and continued by the Declaration of Independence in 1776. It was further matured, and the faith of all the then thirteen States expressly plighted and engaged that it should be perpetual, by the Articles of Confederation in 1778. And finally, in 1787, one of the declared objects for ordaining and establishing the Constitution was "to form a more perfect Union."
��But if destruction of the Union by one or by a part only of the States be lawfully possible, the Union is less perfect than before the Constitution, having lost the vital element of perpetuity.
��It follows from these views that no State upon its own mere motion can lawfully get out of the Union; that resolves and ordinances to that effect are legally void, and that acts of violence within any State or States against the authority of the United States are insurrectionary or revolutionary, according to circumstances."
��
I'm curious how the revisionists address the arguments of Lincoln:

a. All governments are by nature perpetual.
b. Can one party to a contract break the contract and free itself of the obligations?
c. The concept of union, and therefore one people, pre-dates the Constitution and was explicitly meant to be perpetual (Articles of Confederation, XIII)
d. The Constitution was meant to create a more perfect union, which carried forward the idea of perpetuity.

I would add some of the thoughts of Washington from his Farewell Address:

"The unity of Government, which constitutes you one people, is also now dear to you. It is justly so; for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquillity at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very Liberty, which you so highly prize...discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion, that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts...
To the efficacy and permanency of your Union, a Government for the whole is indispensable. No alliances, however strict, between the parts can be an adequate substitute; they must inevitably experience the infractions and interruptions, which all alliances in all times have experienced. Sensible of this momentous truth, you have improved upon your first essay, by the adoption of a Constitution of Government better calculated than your former for an intimate Union, and for the efficacious management of your common concerns. This Government, the offspring of our own choice, uninfluenced and unawed, adopted upon full investigation and mature deliberation, completely free in its principles, in the distribution of its powers, uniting security with energy, and containing within itself a provision for its own amendment, has a just claim to your confidence and your support. Respect for its authority, compliance with its laws, acquiescence in its measures, are duties enjoined by the fundamental maxims of true Liberty. The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their Constitutions of Government. But the Constitution which at any time exists, till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole people, is sacredly obligatory upon all. The very idea of the power and the right of the people to establish Government presupposes the duty of every individual to obey the established Government."
**
To sum up, the People repeatedly established a perpetual union and provided ways to legally amend the government when it was not to their satisfaction. To dissolve the Union required an explicit act of all the people, not some regional minority. Secession was illegal.

[Steelrails]

[geldedgoat]