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Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
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Louis VI
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Location: In my Kingdom
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 Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| austrian123 wrote: |
| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
| Honestly, who cares what those people think? |
It's not what people think....it's what society thinks, and that's what matters. |
 Really? It's what strangers on the street think that matters? Then why the hell did you ever become an insurance salesman, as you mentioned. Society respects those who sell insurance less than plumbers and lawyers.
The fact is that family and friends and others one knows personally, like co-workers, are who matter, not strangers on the street. |
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metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| It's not what friends, family or strangers on the street think, it's what your next potential employer thinks. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, it's what the people on Dave's ESL Cafe think.
We're all doomed. |
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metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
Actually, it's what the people on Dave's ESL Cafe think.
We're all doomed. |
Not really, most people on this site seem incapable of thought. |
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austrian123
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| Whistleblower wrote: |
I am going to weigh in my opinion here. I have noted a lot of people are talking about those teachers that have decided to make a career in the EFL industry and whether this experience is suitable for those that decide to teach 'short-term' in Korea. Obviously, there is going to be a perception about the EFL community that it is a backpackers job (ie. it is only people that are travelling around foreign countries during a gap year that decide to teach EFL). Unfortunately, this perception of the community needs to be refocused as this occupation is essentially language teaching.
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Well, the perception of esl teaching being a 'backpackers' job is not entirely correct. The perception is that esl teaching is limited to those who are not employable back home and those who unfortunately 'fail' to make the cut in the corporate world and for those who have trouble finding dates. |
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austrian123
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| Louis VI wrote: |
| austrian123 wrote: |
| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
| Honestly, who cares what those people think? |
It's not what people think....it's what society thinks, and that's what matters. |
Really? It's what strangers on the street think that matters? Then why the hell did you ever become an insurance salesman, as you mentioned. Society respects those who sell insurance less than plumbers and lawyers.
The fact is that family and friends and others one knows personally, like co-workers, are who matter, not strangers on the street. |
I never said I was insurance sales man, what gave you that idea?
I actually worked as a Systems Analyst/Architect in the insurance industry and gradually became self employed as consultant.
Sure my job wasn't as prestigious as being a lawyer, but I didn't want to be a lawyer. I think lawyers are scumbags and I didn't relish the prospect of working 90+ hours a week and having no life. Do you know high how the divorce rate for lawyers are? Do you know why? But do you know the most important reason why I didn't become a lawyer? As a visible minority, being a lawyer in Canada or the US I could only go so far....the Jewish establishment only lets its own kind rise to the top.
Having said this, I don't think you're in any position to insult anyone about their careers...especially considering what you do for a living.
When I refer to 'society', I am not necessarily referring to strangers on the street......but collectively what people in general think and how corporate interests evaluate your worthiness to work for them. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| austrian123 wrote: |
| Well, the perception of esl teaching being a 'backpackers' job is not entirely correct. The perception is that esl teaching is limited to those who are not employable back home and those who unfortunately 'fail' to make the cut in the corporate world and for those who have trouble finding dates. |
If this is what you believe, then I really have to wonder why people like you decide to come to this site. Do you just want to feel superior? Maybe you should be spending more time with your endless supply of money and women. |
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| austrian123 wrote: |
Well, the perception of esl teaching being a 'backpackers' job is not entirely correct. The perception is that esl teaching is limited to those who are not employable back home and those who unfortunately 'fail' to make the cut in the corporate world and for those who have trouble finding dates. |
I don't really believe that it has a reputation as a magnet for losers and dropouts but I do believe it is thought of as a 'backpacker's job, not least of which because it is a backpackers job (which naturally includes losers and dropouts). Many of my repatriated friends have had the exact same experience in their first job interviews with recruiters and potential employers when returning home that can be summarized like this. "Oh you were an English teacher in South Korea for a few years. Oh you were gone for three years, that's a long time. Oh well, that's cool, it must have been a good experience. So um, do you have any experience in [XYZ industry]?" In other words, you may as well have been telling them you were picking fruit in Australia for 3 years.
I actually think the greatest barrier for most English teachers to get on a career track is not that they are teaching English, it's that they don't know what they want do after they done teaching English. If you don't know what you want and are not working hard to achieve, a great job is not going to fall in your lap after teaching in Korea. Some people get lucky I guess, but most end up in crappy sales or customer service jobs that people do for a living and not much more, the kind of jobs people went to Korea to avoid in the first place. |
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oldlongears
Joined: 11 Feb 2011
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:49 am Post subject: |
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What silkhighway said.
I can only speak to the situation in America. Silkhighway's description is very close to the conversations I've had with employers, friends, family, etc. Others who have taught abroad have said they've had similar conversations. Teaching abroad can be an incredibly rich experience; it gives one the chance to learn language skills, flexibility, intercultural communication skills. Most people who teach abroad are far more aware of all of the things people reference in business and education and newspaper articles (globalization, interconnectedness, international flow of capital).
All of those things are obvious to people on this board. And while those skills can be helpful when applying to certain fields in graduate school, employers, on the whole, prefer people who have narrow, specific, directly relevant experience in their own country. That sucks, and it often means that the job goes to someone who is less skilled overall, but that is how people/employers tend to think.
Having said all of that, I would not exchange my international experience for anything. |
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| oldlongears wrote: |
What silkhighway said.
I can only speak to the situation in America. Silkhighway's description is very close to the conversations I've had with employers, friends, family, etc. Others who have taught abroad have said they've had similar conversations. Teaching abroad can be an incredibly rich experience; it gives one the chance to learn language skills, flexibility, intercultural communication skills. Most people who teach abroad are far more aware of all of the things people reference in business and education and newspaper articles (globalization, interconnectedness, international flow of capital).
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I went to an interview recently after being home for a few years now. I thought teaching in Korea might be relevant to this position, so I played it up a little. But the interviewer threw out the "oh you were there a long time!" comment and did the opposite of what I tried to do, and seemed to downplay my experience. I don't know if I was projecting, but it felt really really condescending to me. To be fair, it wasn't directly relevant, and there are millions of people who bring their own unique experiences, but still, I left the interview feeling a little frustrated.
| Quote: |
All of those things are obvious to people on this board. And while those skills can be helpful when applying to certain fields in graduate school, employers, on the whole, prefer people who have narrow, specific, directly relevant experience in their own country. That sucks, and it often means that the job goes to someone who is less skilled overall, but that is how people/employers tend to think.
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Yes. Employers want to see quantitative results and experiences they can internalize. They want to see sales targets, operating budgets, and technical skillsets. They want to be able to pick up the phone and talk to your references without worrying about time zone differences or language barriers.
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| Having said all of that, I would not exchange my international experience for anything. |
Yeah, I agree. Overall I really do think it was an experience where I learned a lot and that permanently changed me (hopefully for the better). But now I just take it for what it is, which is a priceless personal experience,not easy to sell to anyone else. Maybe someday it will indirectly pay off. |
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ZIFA
Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Location: Dici che il fiume..Trova la via al mare
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Whistleblower wrote: |
| One disadvantage for those that decide to teach long-term in South Korea is that L1 attrition could start to form. Language attrition is essentially "the gradual loss of a ... language ... where the person resides speaks a different language" (Porte, 1999). |
I think this is only where the person is no longer in contact with their own language.
Remember in the journal of Hendrik Hamel, he meets a fellow Dutchman who had been alone in Korea for 20+ years. The man had forgotten how to speak dutch, and it took several weeks of company with his fellow countrymen before he even bagan to remember his own language. 
But this is surely not a problem for anyone who works with other westerners or has western friends. Watching CNN once a week is probably enough to keep up your english language. |
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Thiuda
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| ESL/EFL is a great stepping stone career. Especially for young academics. Provides you with income and teaching experience, and, best of all, with the free time to do the reading, research and studying necessary to do a degree, or two. |
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ren546
Joined: 17 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:00 am Post subject: |
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A lot is being said about how EFL teaching can be perceived in the corporate world, but many of us aren't interested in doing corporate work or sales.
If you're interested in education, it can certainly help (I know that it has helped a number of people I used to work with get into really good teacher's colleges). It can help if you are interested in doing some sort of international policy work, or further pursuing your education in a related field. It can help if you are interested in doing volunteer work abroad. As was just mentioned, if you work in a university, it can give you time to finish a thesis or dissertation while getting paid more than you would working as a TA back in your home country.
And there are certainly a lot of people who enjoy teaching English, and would like to continue to do so in their home countries. For these people, experience abroad is a definite asset, and is often required. |
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| ren546 wrote: |
A lot is being said about how EFL teaching can be perceived in the corporate world, but many of us aren't interested in doing corporate work or sales.
If you're interested in education, it can certainly help (I know that it has helped a number of people I used to work with get into really good teacher's colleges). It can help if you are interested in doing some sort of international policy work, or further pursuing your education in a related field. It can help if you are interested in doing volunteer work abroad. As was just mentioned, if you work in a university, it can give you time to finish a thesis or dissertation while getting paid more than you would working as a TA back in your home country.
And there are certainly a lot of people who enjoy teaching English, and would like to continue to do so in their home countries. For these people, experience abroad is a definite asset, and is often required. |
I meant any job, not just "corporate" jobs. Yes, it might help you get into a university program like teachers college but six months is as good as twenty years when it comes to that. Helping you get into volunteer work isn't very impressive, usually it's vice versa, you get into volunteer work to get into a job.
I'll concede on the last point though, the home market for ESL teaching is growing pretty rapidly, at least where I'm from and there may be a living in it. I have no idea how many positions are in it compared to abroad though. |
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Draz
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Location: Land of Morning Clam
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Whistleblower wrote: |
| All these questions are up to you to decide but Porte's findings are interesting particularly if native teachers are expected to teach a native version of English. |
Three years in and I'm still getting compliments from newbies about how not busted my English is. 
I don't know ANYONE who lost their English by speaking Korean all the time though. All the L1 attrition I've seen is people who've spent so much time hanging out with "English-speaking" Koreans that they basically only speak Konglish now. |
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