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ThingsComeAround
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
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 Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| madoka wrote: |
| Triban wrote: |
White trash? What would happen if we started saying black trash?
I rest my case. |
+1
When a white teenager gets beat by a dozen blacks for daring to date a black girl, it's not a hate crime:
http://www.truecrimereport.com/2009/09/was_the_beating_of_brian_milli.php
Two weeks after Brian Milligan, a white teen, reported being brutally beaten by black youths after being warned to stay away from his African-American girlfriend, there have been no protest marches.
Civil rights group have not demanded a Justice Department probe.
Al Sharpton has not visited. More to the point: Police still have little to go on in probing a "possible" hate crime, even though it's hard to imagine that no one in the neighborhood saw or has heard anything.
Milligan is home from the hospital, his father said, his jaw wired shut, his sense of smell destroyed, his brain still swollen after being hit in the head with a chunk of concrete. |
You must be a comic. Or lacking in knowledge of US History.
Not saying the crime is right, people should date who they want. However, for you to select this particular case without acknowledging that blacks that dated whites have been murdered (with the support of the justice system) is ludicrous. |
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rumdiary
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| rumdiary wrote: |
| You are comparing two different things. Overall, murder and other violent crime is lower now than it has been in the past. |
Overall it certainly seems to be. Within Black culture, that's less clear cut. One of the discussions in this thread (the one I'm participating in, and thus the one I'm making a point regarding) is about Black culture specifically. I thought that was clear, but you still seem to be responding as if it's not. To clarify: I agree with you that (obviously) the nation-wide averaged crime rate today is lower than in the Great Depression Era. The problem I (and I think certain others) are addressing here is that despite that, a certain sub-group of the population still has crime rates that are not only ridiculously high, but actually higher than the average crime rate of that era; an average crime rate which you yourself seem to consider unacceptably high (and rightly so!). That, combined with the fact that said group tends to cluster together, creates unacceptably dangerous areas, which in turn incidentally lead to events like the ones in the original video.
| rumdiary wrote: |
| My point is that people just think it's higher now because more gets videotaped, reported, and put on You Tube. |
Personally I think the Black-specific crime rate is high not because of any particular video, but because it statistically is high. So high that certain pockets of our country simply aren't fit for raising a family, doing business, or living life. If videos on you-tube help raise awareness of that, I think it's a good thing, not a bad one. |
Then you never should have replied to my post because I never brought up race. My point (again) is that people tend to think overall crime and violence are at an all time high and getting worse. This just is not true. Now if you want to argue about race please do it with someone else. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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You said:
| Rumdairy wrote: |
| I don't get this whole, "American is going to hell in a handbag" thing. |
I endeavored to explain why some people are of that mindset. The explanation happens to involve race. If you don't want to address that, that's fine, but it means you'll continue to not understand why people feel the way they do. Obviously understanding this was never your goal, so you're right, I was wrong to respond to you. Lesson learned. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
I don't think in my entire life I've met a pair of white girls who would attack someone in this fashion for using what they felt was the wrong bathroom. Literally ever. |
I have...lots of them. One of my girlfriends in HS was a thug and I must admit to being a bit proud of how willing she was to throw down.
IMO, it's another form of self-fulfillment. The youth of today are seeker greater and greater stimulus to fill a void they have... and violence, especially violence that gives them a "rep", seeks ti fill that.
To me, this has little to do with race. It's a Thug Culture, and most any idiot can take part. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| It's a Thug Culture, and most any idiot can take part. |
Well, putting aside the point about girls (which is anecdotal anyway), I certainly agree with this. In fact, that's precisely why I think it's a solvable problem. |
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vDroop
Joined: 25 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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Heh...
And people ask me when I'm coming back home...
One reason would be the lack of public brutal beatings at my local Lotteria. |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Well, putting aside the point about girls (which is anecdotal anyway), I certainly agree with this. In fact, that's precisely why I think it's a solvable problem. |
Out of interest, what would be your solution to the problem? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
Well, putting aside the point about girls (which is anecdotal anyway), I certainly agree with this. In fact, that's precisely why I think it's a solvable problem. |
Out of interest, what would be your solution to the problem? |
The solution is participants in the culture in question recognizing where the values of that culture have lead them, rejecting them, embracing superior values (especially regarding education, work ethic, violence, and responsibility), and then acting on those values. This solution cannot be forced on them from outside; participants in the culture in question must actively chose to embrace it. All we can do from outside that culture is to acknowledge this issue (rather than denying it or treating member of the culture as victims), encourage reform, do our best to oppose laws which serve as a potential impediment to resolution (such as drug laws), and support laws which help keep the possibility for resolution open (such as laws against workplace discrimination).
The worst thing we can do is reinforce the idea that such people are all helpless victims, and yet that's exactly what is often done. Equally bad is this idea that somehow white crime in the past justifies black crime in the present (an idea which has been implied by a number of people in this thread), since regardless of the speakers frequent insistence otherwise such ideas seek by their very nature to excuse. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| morrisonhotel wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
Well, putting aside the point about girls (which is anecdotal anyway), I certainly agree with this. In fact, that's precisely why I think it's a solvable problem. |
Out of interest, what would be your solution to the problem? |
The solution is participants in the culture in question recognizing where the values of that culture have lead them, rejecting them, embracing superior values (especially regarding education, work ethic, violence, and responsibility), and then acting on those values. This solution cannot be forced on them from outside; participants in the culture in question must actively chose to embrace it. All we can do from outside that culture is to acknowledge this issue (rather than denying it or treating member of the culture as victims), encourage reform, do our best to oppose laws which serve as a potential impediment to resolution (such as drug laws), and support laws which help keep the possibility for resolution open (such as laws against workplace discrimination).
The worst thing we can do is reinforce the idea that such people are all helpless victims, and yet that's exactly what is often done. Equally bad is this idea that somehow white crime in the past justifies black crime in the present (an idea which has been implied by a number of people in this thread), since regardless of the speakers frequent insistence otherwise such ideas seek by their very nature to excuse. |
Why did you turn this into a racial issue, almost instinctively? I saw two young women beating up another one. If that transgendered woman went into a bathroom in a rural town, the same thing could have, and has, very easily happened. For a man to go into a females bathroom is incrediably stupid and inappropriate, whether he feels like he's a girl or not, or what he's wearing. Does that justify anything, of course it's not. It's not his fault, obviously. Poor, underfunded, schools. Lack or good role models. Modern day segregation. Unjust drug laws, especially the disparancy between sentencing for crack and coke. Who controls these things? Is it the Urban Blacks? When you set up a group to fail, that's what it does. Was it thoose individuals choice to beat that man up, yes of course. That was an idividual failing, not the failing of an entire group. When white men pistol whip a gay man to death, was the entire white race indicted? No, of course not, that would be stupid. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Why did you turn this into a racial issue, almost instinctively? |
Why are you so desparate to almost instinctively deny the quite obvious racial element?
| Leon wrote: |
| I saw two young women beating up another one. |
Yeah, okay Leon. You see a single white woman being beaten nearly to death by two black girls, while a crowd of blacks loiter about watching, with the "camera man" going as far as to advise the assailants to flee when the police are coming, and you don't see race. Perhaps a better way to put it would be you willfully ignored the races of the participants, and the reason you ignored it is because your world view requires ignoring the racial identity of the assailants and onlookers.
| Leon wrote: |
| When white men pistol whip a gay man to death, was the entire white race indicted? |
If white men were as statistically likely to murder me or my family as black men, my words with regards to them would be the same. They aren't. Not even close. If I was judging an entire group of people based on this video alone, you'd have a valid point. Since I'm instead referring to statistics which have been repeatedly posted on this forum from a variety of sources, your point loses its validity. I condemn the southern culture that lead to lynchings and anti-Black violence in the past even though plenty of people from that culture never harmed a single person; there was a very obvious problem from a statistical perspective, and it warranted being addressed. I'd be hypocritical (and you yourself are hypocritical) not to hold this culture to the same standard.
The difference between us is that you form judgments, and then try to explain the world in terms of them. I look at data, and then try to formulate judgments which reflect the world. Data demonstrates there's a problem, and that the problem in question is strongly correlated with race, which is what motivates my talking about it. The entire situation becomes crystal clear and remarkably easy to understand when one just stops viewing it emotionally and instead look at the facts. |
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darkjedidave
Joined: 19 Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai/Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| With today's BS lawsuits in the US, who would want to step in and help? A friend who intervened during a mall fight with where 2 guys were beating another guy, he ended up breaking one of the attackers arms when he threw him off the victim and landed on his arm awkwardly. He ended up getting sued for the medical bills and lost, luckily the mall ended up paying the bill. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Why did you turn this into a racial issue, almost instinctively? |
Why are you so desparate to almost instinctively deny the quite obvious racial element?
| Leon wrote: |
| I saw two young women beating up another one. |
Yeah, okay Leon. You see a single white woman being beaten nearly to death by two black girls, while a crowd of blacks loiter about watching, with the "camera man" going as far as to advise the assailants to flee when the police are coming, and you don't see race. Perhaps a better way to put it would be you willfully ignored the races of the participants, and the reason you ignored it is because your world view requires ignoring the racial identity of the assailants and onlookers.
| Leon wrote: |
| When white men pistol whip a gay man to death, was the entire white race indicted? |
If white men were as statistically likely to murder me or my family as black men, my words with regards to them would be the same. They aren't. Not even close. If I was judging an entire group of people based on this video alone, you'd have a valid point. Since I'm instead referring to statistics which have been repeatedly posted on this forum from a variety of sources, your point loses its validity. I condemn the southern culture that lead to lynchings and anti-Black violence in the past even though plenty of people from that culture never harmed a single person; there was a very obvious problem from a statistical perspective, and it warranted being addressed. I'd be hypocritical (and you yourself are hypocritical) not to hold this culture to the same standard.
The difference between us is that you form judgments, and then try to explain the world in terms of them. I look at data, and then try to formulate judgments which reflect the world. Data demonstrates there's a problem, and that the problem in question is strongly correlated with race, which is what motivates my talking about it. The entire situation becomes crystal clear and remarkably easy to understand when one just stops viewing it emotionally and instead look at the facts. |
There are things wrong with the urban black community. This video doesn't have anything to do with it. Why would it. I've seem similar situations, albeit usually less violent ones, commited by whites and latinos. I wish that there was a statistic for crimes commited in predominantly white trailor parks, which in my mind is the closest equivalent. I'm not sure how one would quantify that, but the rates would be pretty close. If anything it's a drug culture, or gang culture, that is perpuated by outlawing drugs. What's worse slinging crack on the corner or meth from your trailer. I feel more safe walking in some public housing projects than some trailer parks. Did you grow up around trailer parks? When the most lucrative occupation available is slinging drugs this is what happens. Statistics never tell the whole story. Also your insistance that thoose in that culture have to change it is shortsighted. Obviously they have to be a part of it, and each person has to take personal responsibilty, but maybe we reach differnt conclusions from the same statistics. You see the crime rate and you see a sick black culture. Dig a little deeper you'll also see failing schools, poor housing situations, societal expectation that they will be thugs, etc. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| There are things wrong with the urban black community. This video doesn't have anything to do with it. |
If you don't think random, needless violence has anything to do with the problems in the American urban Black community, I don't know what to tell you.
| Leon wrote: |
| I've seem similar situations, albeit usually less violent ones, commited by whites and latinos. |
Two words: statistical frequency.
| Leon wrote: |
| I wish that there was a statistic for crimes commited in predominantly white trailor parks, which in my mind is the closest equivalent. I'm not sure how one would quantify that, but the rates would be pretty close. |
So you haven't seen any actual data, but you've made up your mind that it's certainly as bad. What am I supposed to say to that, Leon? I'm happy to entertain any actual data. When you have some, be sure to let me know.
| Leon wrote: |
| Also your insistance that thoose in that culture have to change it is shortsighted. |
I'm not insisting upon anything. If they want to not change, fine; plenty of peoples throughout history have lived in miniature Hells of their own making. I'd rather American Blacks didn't do so for their own sake, but if they want to, that's up to them.
| Leon wrote: |
| You see the crime rate and you see a sick black culture. Dig a little deeper you'll also see failing schools, |
Schools fail because of who attends them, first and foremost. This is a problem internal to the culture, not external.
| Leon wrote: |
| poor housing situations, |
A huge percentage of the world has worse housing situations than American Blacks and yet simultaneously has a lower crime rate.
| Leon wrote: |
| societal expectation that they will be thugs, |
Honestly, I find this to be one of the most repugnant gems in the crown of the apologist, both on this matter and in general. It's a nice way to project blame off of the target you're attempting to defend and onto the rest of society. It's also totally baseless, totally unfalsifiable, totally impossible to demonstrate positively, and purely an article of faith.
Unconvincing. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| There are things wrong with the urban black community. This video doesn't have anything to do with it. |
If you don't think random, needless violence has anything to do with the problems in the American urban Black community, I don't know what to tell you. |
The video is a single incident. You made it about race. If it was a racially motivated attack then it would be a valid claim. Nothing indicates that it was about race. The article makes it sound like it was started over a man, or even more likely due to a trans-gendered issue. There is nothing intrinsically racial about this. You have decided to make it a racial issue. If we were initially discussing crime in urban areas, or racial attacks than it would be one thing, but you've decided to use this singular incident to start a discussion about black urban culture.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| I've seem similar situations, albeit usually less violent ones, commited by whites and latinos. |
Two words: statistical frequency.
| Leon wrote: |
| I wish that there was a statistic for crimes commited in predominantly white trailor parks, which in my mind is the closest equivalent. I'm not sure how one would quantify that, but the rates would be pretty close. |
So you haven't seen any actual data, but you've made up your mind that it's certainly as bad. What am I supposed to say to that, Leon? I'm happy to entertain any actual data. When you have some, be sure to let me know. |
As of now, as far as I know, there are no published statistics, as far as I can tell. It's possible there is, but I don't have the time to look for it. I'll go ahead and say that I know in my own area it was equal. I would say that for poor rural whites meth is the equivalent of crack, and it is a growing problem. It is also a predominately white drug. This is the closet that I can find to verify my claim about poor whites. Blacks have the lowest rate of meth. use. Crack has been around longer, and is more of a "black" drug which might explain this culture you're talking about. It might be more of a crack culture than a black culture. Meth. is starting to catch up.
http://books.google.co.kr/books?id=YqZkw-apxVAC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=rate+of+blacks+and+whites+using+methamphetamine+race&source=bl&ots=trvWi_nyda&sig=ekRWvcy2uxr3eEcqaZ2ggX871RM&hl=ko&ei=CjK1TYWMIY26vwORtMSdBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://www.mappsd.org/Meth%20and%20Crime%20Rate.htm
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0818/p02s01-ussc.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8472940/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
It's not a perfect comparison, but it's the best I can do without devoting tons of time.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Also your insistance that thoose in that culture have to change it is shortsighted. |
I'm not insisting upon anything. If they want to not change, fine; plenty of people throughout history have made in miniature Hells of their own making. I'd rather American Blacks didn't do so, but if they want to, that's up to them.
| Leon wrote: |
| You see the crime rate and you see a sick black culture. Dig a little deeper you'll also see failing schools, |
Schools fail because of who attends them, first and foremost. This is a problem internal to the culture, not external. |
There is some truth to what you say, but failing schools also have less resources, bigger class sizes, etc. Separate but not equal.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| poor housing situations, |
A huge percentage of the world has worse housing situations than American Blacks and yet simultaneously has a lower crime rate.
| Leon wrote: |
| societal expectation that they will be thugs, |
Honestly, I find this to be one of the most repugnant gems in the crown of the apologist, both on this matter and in general. It's a nice way to project blame off of the target you're attempting to defend and onto the rest of society. It's also totally baseless, totally unfalsifiable, totally impossible to demonstrate positively, and purely an article of faith.
Unconvincing. |
Look at how blacks are portrayed by the media. It's pretty one dimensional in many cases. It's becoming better, but slowly. If you are constantly told that you, or your people, are one way, then is it really all that surprising that it begins to affect how people see themselves. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
The video is a single incident.
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Not a single incident, Leon. A single example. And it needn't even have been racially motivated to prove my point; Black-on-Black violence is just as bad, just as unacceptable, just as problematic. Whether this attack was racially motivated, orientation motivated, or just plain malicious, it's an example of something not at all uncommon in American Black culture: needless, excessive violence. It's this kind of behavior -- willingness to engage in such violence combined with willingness to tolerate or even encourage other members of your culture engaging in such violence -- that leads to the ridiculous rates of violent crime you see in Black crime statistics.
| Leon wrote: |
| As of now, as far as I know, there are no published statistics, as far as I can tell. |
Then there's no real point in talking about it any longer. If you happen across some data regarding it some day, feel free to let me know.
| Leon wrote: |
| There is some truth to what you say, but failing schools also have less resources, bigger class sizes, etc. Separate but not equal. |
Resources are over-rated. Class size may be relevant on a case-by-case basis (and in general I certainly would agree with efforts to reduce class sizes for all children in America), but I've taught enough big classes to recognize that, again, how much that extra class size hurts depends largely on who you're teaching. A larger class size with well mannered students is a mild detriment; a larger class size with ruffians is a catastrophe.
| Leon wrote: |
| Look at how blacks are portrayed by the media. It's pretty one dimensional in many cases. |
There have been a number of fairly well-argued cases made on the CE forums that the American media actually goes out of its way to hide the extent of the problem. What you call "becoming better" actually ranges somewhere between simply not reporting on legitimate news stories in order to avoid being accused of racism and outright deception, and when serious Black crime is reported on, very frequently totally irrelevant information about White crime will be included to compensate and "provide context," (in fact, this happens so frequently that posters like ThingsComeAround are actually attacking people for not doing the same thing in casual forum posts!). And don't even get started about entertainment media, which (reality TV excepted) actively goes out of its way to ennoble Blacks. Reality TV would do the same if it could, but the downside of actually using real people is that you get, well, real results.
| Leon wrote: |
| If you are constantly told that you, or your people, are one way, then is it really all that surprising that it begins to affect how people see themselves. |
When the President of the nation is Black, Blacks have strong representation in Congress, Blacks run a number of local governments, and Blacks can find a number of role-models in sports, entertainment, academics, public service, and the business world, I think it's time to put this idea to rest. How much more, "Yes, you can!" is needed before we realize that the values you learn from your parents and friends are what really matters, and the ideas expressed in the national media are ultimately trivial? If presentation of a positive image was sufficient to reform Black culture, it should have paid serious dividends by now. It has not. It will not. You can't fool these kids; when they're surrounded by an violent, thuggish, anti-education culture, no amount of media propaganda is going to change the results. It's what the people in their community do that will matter to them, not what Will Smith does in Independence Day, or how frequently CNN talks about Blacks in a certain way.
Last edited by Fox on Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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