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ren546
Joined: 17 Dec 2010
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 Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| silkhighway wrote: |
I meant any job, not just "corporate" jobs. Yes, it might help you get into a university program like teachers college but six months is as good as twenty years when it comes to that. Helping you get into volunteer work isn't very impressive, usually it's vice versa, you get into volunteer work to get into a job.
I'll concede on the last point though, the home market for ESL teaching is growing pretty rapidly, at least where I'm from and there may be a living in it. I have no idea how many positions are in it compared to abroad though. |
6 months is not as good as 20 years, depending on the program and location. You also need reputable reference letters for some, which you won't get if you worked in some crappy hagwon for 6 months.
As for volunteer work, believe it or not, some government positions are not that easy to come by, and do actually ask for some overseas traveling experience.
You may not be talking about "corporate" jobs exclusively, but the jobs you do seem to be talking about are entry-level-somethings that seem to have little to do with education. I have certainly met many people here who have come to Korea to teach because they either (a) couldn't get a job back home, or (b) didn't know what they wanted to do. There are certainly many jobs in Korea and elsewhere that are nothing but a joke. But I resent the fact that people may perceive all ESL/EFL teachers this way.
My advice to anyone who thinks that this field is somehow similar to working in, say, the fast food industry: go back home and apply for an ESL teaching job at a local university, or talk to people who work in the field back in your home country, and you will quickly see that it's not. |
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| ren546 wrote: |
| silkhighway wrote: |
I meant any job, not just "corporate" jobs. Yes, it might help you get into a university program like teachers college but six months is as good as twenty years when it comes to that. Helping you get into volunteer work isn't very impressive, usually it's vice versa, you get into volunteer work to get into a job.
I'll concede on the last point though, the home market for ESL teaching is growing pretty rapidly, at least where I'm from and there may be a living in it. I have no idea how many positions are in it compared to abroad though. |
6 months is not as good as 20 years, depending on the program and location. You also need reputable reference letters for some, which you won't get if you worked in some crappy hagwon for 6 months.
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It will get you into a education program because it shows you have experience with youth, but doing it for a long enough period to get a reference letter is all you need. You're not expected to have already taught when you enter the program, the fact that you have tested the waters is enough.
And then after that you still need to get a job. I can't speak for other countries, but teaching in Canada is a whole can of worms that until you manage to get plugged into the system has little to do with how much experience you have beforehand and a lot more to do with politics, who you know, and where you are at the time.
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As for volunteer work, believe it or not, some government positions are not that easy to come by, and do actually ask for some overseas traveling experience.
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Well I can't comment on this. I don't know what positions you are talking about. I still can't imagine why they would care if you were away one year or twenty.
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You may not be talking about "corporate" jobs exclusively, but the jobs you do seem to be talking about are entry-level-somethings that seem to have little to do with education.
I have certainly met many people here who have come to Korea to teach because they either (a) couldn't get a job back home, or (b) didn't know what they wanted to do. There are certainly many jobs in Korea and elsewhere that are nothing but a joke. But I resent the fact that people may perceive all ESL/EFL teachers this way.
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I'm not making any kind of character reference to ESL teachers. If anything, I would love someone to come on this thread and say I got this great *paying* job because of my ESL experience. I would love the opposite of what I'm arguing to be true and an experience abroad to be valuable. I just can't see how teaching ESL abroad efficiently leads to anything other than teaching more ESL, and I'm especially talking more than 2-3 years of it.
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My advice to anyone who thinks that this field is somehow similar to working in, say, the fast food industry: go back home and apply for an ESL teaching job at a local university, or talk to people who work in the field back in your home country, and you will quickly see that it's not. |
In Korea, it's easy to live in a bubble of theoreticals and ignore reality that while you're away, there are people smooching and begging to get into decent jobs, and meeting the right people to make it happen,but somehow, you're going to walk in off the street after being away many years and be bumped to the front of the pile. It's also easy to ignore that there are tons of immigrants who have much more relevant experience than ESL/EFL teachers but get completely ignored because the experience is not within the countr. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| silkhighway wrote: |
| I'm not making any kind of character reference to ESL teachers. If anything, I would love someone to come on this thread and say I got this great *paying* job because of my ESL experience. I would love the opposite of what I'm arguing to be true and an experience abroad to be valuable. I just can't see how teaching ESL abroad efficiently leads to anything other than teaching more ESL, and I'm especially talking more than 2-3 years of it. |
So now the argument has shifted from '2+ years of ESL as the death of every career that you could possibly ever want or imagine, ha ha ha' to 'I'm afraid that ESL won't get you other, non-ESL related jobs'.
I personally feel that this is a step in the right direction. |
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
| silkhighway wrote: |
| I'm not making any kind of character reference to ESL teachers. If anything, I would love someone to come on this thread and say I got this great *paying* job because of my ESL experience. I would love the opposite of what I'm arguing to be true and an experience abroad to be valuable. I just can't see how teaching ESL abroad efficiently leads to anything other than teaching more ESL, and I'm especially talking more than 2-3 years of it. |
So now the argument has shifted from '2+ years of ESL as the death of every career that you could possibly ever want or imagine, ha ha ha' to 'I'm afraid that ESL won't get you other, non-ESL related jobs'.
I personally feel that this is a step in the right direction. |
I have never claimed that teaching ESL is the death of every career that you could possibly want or imagine. I think just about every ESL teacher is capable of landing a decent job if they wanted to return home but it may not exactly be their dream job. I just don't think teaching ESL is helping you build a stable career..at least not too much. It doesn't have to be black and white. |
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West Coast Tatterdemalion
Joined: 31 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| You guys..geez...jabbering around like a bunch of old women. "oh, I need a career..oh, what about my career?" Sheesh. Life is short, you're going to die someday soon, why all this worry? That career that you want is going to plant you in a place for years as their little slave, probably staying in the same town and if, by some chance, you manage to survive until retirement, you'll be too old to enjoy your money. Instead you'll be wondering why you fell for all that propaganda about having a career is the most important thing in life. You're going into the ground or being cremated and you ain't got a choice in that. Live a little and stop worrying so much about a future that might never come and even if it does, you'll be too old to really enjoy it. Live for today. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| West Coast Tatterdemalion wrote: |
| You guys..geez...jabbering around like a bunch of old women. "oh, I need a career..oh, what about my career?" Sheesh. Life is short, you're going to die someday soon, why all this worry? That career that you want is going to plant you in a place for years as their little slave, probably staying in the same town and if, by some chance, you manage to survive until retirement, you'll be too old to enjoy your money. Instead you'll be wondering why you fell for all that propaganda about having a career is the most important thing in life. You're going into the ground or being cremated and you ain't got a choice in that. Live a little and stop worrying so much about a future that might never come and even if it does, you'll be too old to really enjoy it. Live for today. |
Well, you see Tatters, it's like this:
Life is like a wheel. Right now, you with your youth and limited wants are up there, on top..
But the wheel turns. |
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Whistleblower
Joined: 03 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Draz wrote: |
| Whistleblower wrote: |
| All these questions are up to you to decide but Porte's findings are interesting particularly if native teachers are expected to teach a native version of English. |
Three years in and I'm still getting compliments from newbies about how not busted my English is. 
I don't know ANYONE who lost their English by speaking Korean all the time though. All the L1 attrition I've seen is people who've spent so much time hanging out with "English-speaking" Koreans that they basically only speak Konglish now. |
I did start to notice that I had difficulty recalling particular words in English. I can see some teachers starting to communicate with teachers in a particular context but 70% of the time speaking a 'motherese' version of English for young leanrers having some form of language attrition. However, it is short-lived and once one returns home, they will get their mother-tongue back.
Anyhow, teaching in Korea can be viewed as useful or counter-productive and have different interviews from others on both sides of the fence. Just got to learn how to bite the bullet. |
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ren546
Joined: 17 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| silkhighway wrote: |
Well I can't comment on this. I don't know what positions you are talking about. I still can't imagine why they would care if you were away one year or twenty.
In Korea, it's easy to live in a bubble of theoreticals and ignore reality that while you're away, there are people smooching and begging to get into decent jobs, and meeting the right people to make it happen,but somehow, you're going to walk in off the street after being away many years and be bumped to the front of the pile. It's also easy to ignore that there are tons of immigrants who have much more relevant experience than ESL/EFL teachers but get completely ignored because the experience is not within the countr. |
I don't know, I think you're just a bit negative, perhaps due to personal experience of some sort. I know a lot of people who walked into good government jobs after working overseas teaching ESL, or working in other unrelated industries, WITHOUT networking (it's called applying through a job board). Also, a LOT of networking these days is online, so I'm not sure what you're missing by not being that annoying kid at the party looking for a job. Perhaps being outside the country is doing some people a favor.
Also, immigrants tend to get the s*** end of the stick when it comes to jobs these days, since a lot of employers prefer hiring locals due to the economic crisis. Don't make it sound like immigrants have it so easy, because they don't.
As for volunteer experience that requires actual work experience, see here: http://www.cuso-vso.org/?setlang=/
The problem probably isn't ESL experience itself. It's knowing how to market it in the right ways, and to have a good explanation as to why you chose to do it for so long. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people who go into interviews and say things like, "Yeah, man, it was great! Lot's of partying. Like, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do when I was done, so I went with some friends and had a great time. The teaching? Oh the teaching. Yeah, that was good, too." |
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Louis VI
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
Location: In my Kingdom
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| I read English novels, I watch English movies, I listen to English coverage of sports, I converse in English with family and friends back home. My English skills haven't deteriorated in 8+ years here. If anything they have IMPROVED in that I am more aware of word choice, tailoring speech to the audience more than ever before, careful of what I am saying and how it is said, not in a stilted way, but in a streaming yet self-conscious manner I wouldn't have been capable of doing if I hadn't moved to a country where the locals speak English only as a foreign language. |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| silkhighway wrote: |
| I have never claimed that teaching ESL is the death of every career that you could possibly want or imagine. I think just about every ESL teacher is capable of landing a decent job if they wanted to return home but it may not exactly be their dream job. I just don't think teaching ESL is helping you build a stable career..at least not too much. It doesn't have to be black and white. |
Yeah, I wasn't really talking about you. |
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PRagic
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Have to agree with Thuida if you're looking long term. Five examples:
1. A few friends who came to Korea after university and started teaching at Hakwons. Paid off their debt and decided they liked teaching. Knocked out their MAs and now work as university lecturers. They also have work on the side. These friends, granted, are married to Koreans and can work where they want, when they want. Banking serious coin and enjoying life.
2. A few friends who decided long ago that they wanted to be in teaching after having spent a few years in law or business. They knocked out their MAs, CELT, DELTA and other certs and are on top of the university lecturer food chain. These are the people that get any job they apply for in general, and make top buck for university lecturer slots. Many invest their substantial savings in real estate and/or the market outside of Korea and are in a position to retire in their mid-40s or early 50s. Will they? Maybe, but they seem to take full advantage of the long semester breaks.
3. A couple of friends who started out in hakwons, but made the move to editing at banks and financial houses. These guys (they are all guys) have backgrounds in business or journalism for the most part. One guy I used to work with has been promoted to the VP level in Hong Kong. One guy is the highest paid editor in Korea. Several make well over 70 million a year. It's a pretty good English oriented lateral career move if you can get your foot in the door.
4. A few friends who came to Korea with BAs and started working for hakwons. They knocked out their MAs (some distance, some back in N. America or England) and got some experience teaching at universities. They they got accepted to TESOL Ph.D. programs in pretty big name schools in N. America. They plan on working as professors either 'back home' or here in Korea.
5. Me. I came in with a BA and started working at a hakwon. I liked teaching, but wouldn't have known had I not started somewhere. Knocked out my MBA. Teaching and working in English-related jobs (writing, editing, recording...) payed the tuition and allowed for some great vacations and serious banking potential. Got into a Ph.D. program in a non-English related field after teaching for a year or so in a university program here in Seoul. I had started working in a government job in trade and investment, but that went the way of the Dodo when the financial crisis hit. Anyway, when everyone else in the Ph.D. program back in the US was scrimping by, I was flying back and forth to Korea and laying on beach in Thailand over the breaks with the better half. A visitorship at a Korean university gave me the income and time to finish off my dissertation. Got into tenure track slots from the get-go in my dicipline and haven't looked back since. I haven't taught English or in ESL related work for years now, but I never discount that experience; it helped put us where we are today. I know other academics in other fields who went similar routes here.
So make of it what you will. Get in, do your time, and 'go home' if that's where you want to be. If you're in education, then, as many posters have stated, your experience in Korea should count. If not, you're at least getting some boots on the ground experience in another culture. It is what you make of it, much as anything else in life. Best advice? Make a plan and have goals. Sounds cheesy, but you'd be very surprised at the number of people just drifting along. Hey, that's fine if that's 'your thing', but don't winge about it down the road.
ESL teaching can be a fine career, and it can be a fantastic gateway to other lines of work, whether related to ESL education or not. |
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