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Slowmotion
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
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 Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:22 am Post subject: |
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Any Christians in here?
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet - 1 Timothy 2:12
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Konitsu
Joined: 28 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:33 am Post subject: |
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Come on, boys, if my 77 year old grandfather can get with the program, so can you!
I think what helped him the most was watching all that Xena Warrior Princess. |
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methdxman
Joined: 14 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| jfromtheway wrote: |
| Appreciate the respectful response. But I never used the words sexist, misogynist, etc. And I didn't state any "exceptions" or qualify an end result based on absolute gender equality. You initially raised the two PhD's concept and said it was meaningless, saying no one would care. Short term negative impacts are one thing, but it doesn't necessarily have to jump start assumptions about a long term overall detriment towards the future of the human race. Those things tend to work themselves out and the planet, as an entity within itself, could obviously care less. I don't live in a fantasy world and I never said women should be equal to men in all aspects. We're all different, that's why I can't be the starting center for the Knicks. But it doesn't have to be deterministic or based on broad-sweeping conclusions regarding the future as we often see it, often in shortsighted fashion no less, that's all. I really don't want to argue though. I do believe, however, that the upward mobility of females will be an important part of the long term future of humanity in general. Even if it takes these hoes forever. |
Why is the upward mobility of females important? We live in a world that is characterized by disparity. Disparity is why we can even have financial markets.
I'm not saying that males have to have more power, but why is it inherently important that women become upwardly mobile? |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:33 am Post subject: |
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It is important because we want it. We're people, not servants. Deal with the fact that many of us want options that were unavailable in our grandmothers' time. Does that mean that all of us will choose the same thing? No. Choice is key, though.
Last edited by NYC_Gal 2.0 on Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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jfromtheway
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:34 am Post subject: |
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| methdxman wrote: |
| jfromtheway wrote: |
| Appreciate the respectful response. But I never used the words sexist, misogynist, etc. And I didn't state any "exceptions" or qualify an end result based on absolute gender equality. You initially raised the two PhD's concept and said it was meaningless, saying no one would care. Short term negative impacts are one thing, but it doesn't necessarily have to jump start assumptions about a long term overall detriment towards the future of the human race. Those things tend to work themselves out and the planet, as an entity within itself, could obviously care less. I don't live in a fantasy world and I never said women should be equal to men in all aspects. We're all different, that's why I can't be the starting center for the Knicks. But it doesn't have to be deterministic or based on broad-sweeping conclusions regarding the future as we often see it, often in shortsighted fashion no less, that's all. I really don't want to argue though. I do believe, however, that the upward mobility of females will be an important part of the long term future of humanity in general. Even if it takes these hoes forever. |
Why is the upward mobility of females important? We live in a world that is characterized by disparity. Disparity is why we can even have financial markets.
I'm not saying that males have to have more power, but why is it inherently important that women become upwardly mobile? |
The simple answer is that it is an unmistakable part of our reality given that women will be the majority of college degree earners in the very near future. They are mobilizing upwards. What will come of that is unknown to both of us. Even if major disparities exist (which they do) throughout all sectors of our society, our adherence to that ensures us nothing, may easily limit our overall mobility, and is not necessarily better for anyone, as far as we can discern in a discussion of this nature. These are social phenomenons that are always morphing for good or bad, but humanity, like any organism, will move forward regardless of things like this which I believe to be largely trivial overall. Males have more power (obviously) and will continue to hold that power throughout our lifetimes and well beyond. So for the most part, in my opinion, it is a non-issue and does little harm to our society as a whole. In a long-term historical context, I would bet on female upward mobility being inherently important overall, if that answers your question. But we are simply interpreters of conglomerations of data juxtaposed with unavoidable individual human bias, so I don't hold must stake in predictions. As fun as it is to make them. |
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pangaea
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:19 am Post subject: |
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jfromtheway wrote:
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| I do believe, however, that the upward mobility of females will be an important part of the long term future of humanity in general. Even if it takes these hoes forever. |
If you were joking, you get one of these:
If you were not, you get one of these:  |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| Where is the misogyny? A fair person would call my views compassionate. Untrue, misguided, as you will, but emotionally compassionate. Take them as an exegesis of the coworker's point of view, which as others have pointed out, was intended compassionately. |
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barbaricyip
Joined: 30 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:23 am Post subject: |
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That's the thing though - benevolent sexism is still sexism.
Thank you so much for defending and providing for me, a delicate member of the weaker sex, so on, so forth. I just don't know what I would do without men to help me figure out my place in this world.
You know. Like that.
Note from Incognito Girlfriend: Patronization is not compassion. |
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Konitsu
Joined: 28 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Quite frankly, I'm curious as to why this discussion is even happening. I mean, what's the grand goal, here? Is there some hope that we'll see the guiding light, get back in the kitchen, and make a sandwich?
Obviously it's too late, seeing as any woman posting on this forum already has a college education and has struck out for an independent job in a foreign country.
I'm afraid it's just too late for us now.
It's one thing for our supervisor to approach her from a different cultural viewpoint and cause some confusion, and entirely another for one or two folk here to get all FEMALES, DON'T YOU SEE. DON'T YOU SEE. |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| barbaricyp wrote: |
| That's the thing though - benevolent sexism is still sexism. |
If we go by the dictionary definition of sexist, it seems that nature is the worst sexist of all. Don�t you think? Nature is the original discriminator. The only question is how thorough-going a sexist nature is. Did she discriminate just superficially, or did she discriminate down to the bone, such that any woman attempting to resist her womanly nature is doomed to an unfulfilling existence, and vice versa for any man?
Why are women born as women, and men as men? If �choice is key�, why don�t we get any choice about that? Is it random, accidental, trivial?
| barbaricyp wrote: |
Thank you so much for defending and providing for me, a delicate member of the weaker sex, so on, so forth. I just don't know what I would do without men to help me figure out my place in this world.
You know. Like that. |
Through the vast expanse of time that came before, say, the 20th century, your sarcasm would have been just so much pure truth. I imagine that in those times women did say those things to their men, only quite earnestly. (And honestly, I've found almost nothing more shameful than failing to protect a woman 'in my care', and little more gratifying than being thanked for it when I succeeded. "My hero," as it were.)
Women are weaker than men, and if our society became less secure than it is, I suspect we�d find most women quickly waffling from their assertive independence. Now, while our society is relatively secure and physical power is unimportant in daily life, this doesn�t mean that the underlying natures of men and women � as active and passive � are in any way altered, though they are less grossly obvious.
| Konitsu wrote: |
| Quite frankly, I'm curious as to why this discussion is even happening. I mean, what's the grand goal, here? |
The grand goal is to pass the time, to explain, and maybe to begin to persuade. Do you believe that college educated women are incapable of being swayed by sincere and rational argument? That�s taking a dim view of them, wouldn�t you say? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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We could call Koveras sexist and go about with our day, but I'm going to entertain his suggestion. Its more fun this way. I think he's sincere (he's not trolling). And after all, we might learn how to respond to our traditional Korean interlocutors.
Alright, Koveras, you're a smart guy (I'm sorry but the theme here is patronization, I'm just going with it). But are you smooth? Can you say something about women that is both complimentary and true? Maybe you mean to say that passive is a virtue, but I doubt Western women will see it that way. |
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Konitsu
Joined: 28 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'm actually kind of gob smacked by his earnestly held belief that, before pesky feminism came along, women were all sorts of happy to be treated like not terribly intelligent children.
I hate to break it to your Koveras, but your arguments don't come off as particularly rational. They don't really come in a new, original flavor, either. This is what women grow up rolling around in, you're not going to rock anyone's world with it.
You're getting a little correlation up in your causation. Yes, there are differences between all sorts of groups in the world. Yes, those differences do, and have, lead to historical oppression of groups to different degrees of severity. No, that does not make this oppression the True and Right Way To Do Things.
By the way, the 'womanly nature' you keep harping on is an upper class ideal that never really existed except in the minds of men with money. Poor women couldn't, and can't, afford it, and rich women found, and find, ways to gleefully circumvent it.
Come on, dude, I'm a self-professed butch lesbian. Tell me what I'm going to get out of your world view, should I subscribe. More reductionist gender policies and homophobia? A room in the attic? A husband I don't like, want, or need? A bumper sticker? People are selfish, you gotta tell me what's in this for me. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| Konitsu wrote: |
By the way, the 'womanly nature' you keep harping on is an upper class ideal that never really existed except in the minds of men with money. Poor women couldn't, and can't, afford it, and rich women found, and find, ways to gleefully circumvent it. |
Yes, that's true. In America, women on the frontier were always fairly independent, having to hold down the homestead while "Pa" took the harvest to market.
I think the weaker part of Koveras' argument is that things actually were the way he describes so recently ago, rather than this is the way gender matters should be. |
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oldtrafford
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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After a moment through which I slowly digested that yes, this was a real conversation I was about to have, I very honestly told him that I didn't think such a thing was going to happen, especially given that I am more interested in being a person who I am proud to be, with a job I am proud to do, than to seek companionship. Also that I had my career in mind first. And finally that I'm not actually planning on getting married.
Firstly you sound like a bra burner, a feminist I think is the political crap word. Thankfully Korea won't bend to your delusional mindset.
Secondly, if you're so career minded then why the hell are you working in a poky hogwon in Korea, making a couple of million and living in a shoe box!!
By heck I sure as hell hope I don't meet you at the bar  |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| barbaricyip wrote: |
Goodness. High number of misogynists on Dave's. Stop the presses. Whodathunkit.
Thank you for the advice, Kuros, ESL_Milk, NYC_Gal, Fox, and anyone else I missed. Mostly I was worried over whether this was subtle venom or benevolent sexism. Glad to hear that the general opinion is that it's the latter.
Things with the supervisor were patched over pretty quick - I said it was probably cultural, gave the example of my hardcore democrat mother and hardcore republican step-father, and we were joking during the rest of the day about other things.
Definitely not planning on outting myself, though the girlfriend and I have previously considered regretfully resigning on account of lesbianism. It's that kind of business.
Thanks again, folks! Well, some of you. |
Barbara - Methdx or whatever their handle is just is a misogynist in desperate denial as well as a shallow narcissist who thinks that his preoccupation with money, more money, women producing children so that big business can get those generations of future consumers to run up debts and keep the money going into their coffers, qualifies as 'normal'. I'm a white (way back Black ancestry on one side but my cultural influences and recent forbears are white), straight Brit male who has welcomed the fact that women in our countries now have more choices to live as they want than at any time in world history.
Sure there are still inequalities but as you've found out, Korea is still deep in the idea that women exist to make life comfortable to men and to rear most importantly male children to carry on the family name per the Confucian custom.
Marriage mainly exists for this, it's a kind of business arrangement for most Koreans over the age of 30 or so (altthough the idea of marrying for a relationship of compatibility is getting heard more), and male promiscuity is fine while of course women are expected to endure their husbands' visits with groups to brothels. That's not saying all Korean men have extra marital sex but it's certainly something that's encouraged and endorsed by the male dominated society.
Male relationships are the most important thing in Korea. Notice how males sit with males while dining etc - a kind of gender apartheid that is fine. That's how they want it. Yet despite all the hand holding of males and the way they dance with each other and want to hang out with each other and don't for the most part see women as friends, Korea is fiercely homophobic as a society. I am sure as a lesbian you see why. I bet it is also not lost on you as to why Korean society is obsessed with women looking skinny with no curves.
I've noticed that the society feels threatened by females who basically don't resemble males in flat chests and flat figures. Homosociality is fine in Korea - homosexuality is not although there is a fair bit of downlow gay behaviour going on re men hanging around toilets and convenience stores etc to pick up other men. Then go home to their wives.
The fact that you find this kind of society and the pronouncement made by the male Korean co worker as odd is nothing at all unusual by non Korean standards.The Koreans can think this is fine all they like - their choice but oddballs like Methdx just sound silly in their denial. |
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